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Bus Gate, Wapping High Street
jb100
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:15
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This is my first experience of a "Bus Gate", note there is no "Gate" and the signage around this one is very poor, forums seemingly agree; poor signage, odd red line road markings, "lots of people are driving through oblivious", which must be testament to how poor the signage is!
The charge does not appear to be clear on the PCN (no code number) and does the LA have to specify which vehicles are prohibited (buses are allowed through)?
Any advise on this very much appreciated.

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post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:15
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Incandescent
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 18:46
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AFAIK, no, it doesn't. You say the signage is deficient, so give us a GSV link so we can look. Also tell us what confused you and caused you to pass the Buses Only sign.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 21:01
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Couple of other cases at this new one:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=132436


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=132535
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jb100
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 12:52
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 18:46) *
AFAIK, no, it doesn't. You say the signage is deficient, so give us a GSV link so we can look. Also tell us what confused you and caused you to pass the Buses Only sign.


Thank you Incandescent.
Tower Hamlets put the Bus Gate in place in Nov-19 so it does not appear in GVS.
A link to the image of the sign is below, please note this image is from another post, probably Nov-19, and the tape may have been removed since as the timing of my PCN was 18:12pm.
There is no Buses Only signage.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhyUd-MJOW2igrBR5ki...mOPIEg?e=UB6BKF

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 21:01) *


Thank you Stamfordman.
Yes I looked at both cases, the timing one very unreasonable of Tower Hamlets to issue a PCN over a 1 minute infringement!
The other has similarities.
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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 17:19
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Can you post the video please.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Twistededge
post Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 00:40
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I live in Wapping, so took some photos when I was out running...

These are the red lines accross the road at mini roundabout -- these are only on the east to west section as you drive through the gate.



These are the signs for this section; they are not illuminated - they've just been caught by my flash...



-----------------------------------------------------

Further back, (500 metres at a rough guess) there is another sign, the only one that actually calls it a "bus gate" but doesn't say anything else



----------------------------------

This is the same roundabout from the other approach -- no road markings, and a sign that is only visible the minute you drive through the gate, when you turn left.



There is the sign for the above -- a good distance away -- it's dimly illuminated (the light isn't quite straight) and (guessing) about 20 metres or so before the roundabout (look closely and you can see the blue mini roundabout sign in the distance):



This post has been edited by Twistededge: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 00:43
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jb100
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 16:12
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 17:19) *
Can you post the video please.


Unfortunately video does not appear to play, it seems one has to call the council to arrange a viewing!

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 00:40) *
I live in Wapping, so took some photos when I was out running...

These are the red lines accross the road at mini roundabout -- these are only on the east to west section as you drive through the gate.



These are the signs for this section; they are not illuminated - they've just been caught by my flash...



-----------------------------------------------------

Further back, (500 metres at a rough guess) there is another sign, the only one that actually calls it a "bus gate" but doesn't say anything else



----------------------------------

This is the same roundabout from the other approach -- no road markings, and a sign that is only visible the minute you drive through the gate, when you turn left.



There is the sign for the above -- a good distance away -- it's dimly illuminated (the light isn't quite straight) and (guessing) about 20 metres or so before the roundabout (look closely and you can see the blue mini roundabout sign in the distance):




Thank you Twistededge, very helpful indeed, seems signage has been increased including new signs on The Highway.
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Twistededge
post Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 07:50
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QUOTE (jb100 @ Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 16:12) *
Thank you Twistededge, very helpful indeed, seems signage has been increased including new signs on The Highway.


They have, but in my mind they are still confusing.

A bus gate should have a picture of a white bus in a blue circular background -- one council official tried to argue with me on this point, stating that it isn't a "true bus gate', but maybe he hadn't seen the sign calling it a bus gate.

The red lines are nowhere in the regs -- I don't know if they are allowed extra lines, but I would have thought they'd still need to be clear rather than dark red.

The signs are largely not illuminated (not sure if they need to be) or visible in a normal driver's range of vision (very high).

Some signs are a very long way from the actual cutoff point.



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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 09:42
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They can use the flying motorbike sign for a bus gate--there is a famous Oxford case.

The order notice indicates that this is an experimental bus gateway "being a point ‘no motor vehicles except local buses’ restriction".

The contravention given on the PCN is failure to comply with a prohibition on motor vehicles which rather truncates the above description but fits the usual requirements of the flying motorbike sign.

Unfortunately the flying motorbike sign (Diagram 619) is not a Sect 36 sign else we could have argued a Sect 36 V TMO defence.

If the speed limit is 20mph the signs don't have to be illuminated although it seems particularly dark at the bus gate.

There are a number of things which might be exploitable:-

1) I think the signage is totally inadequate to demonstrate to a diligent motorist that a bus gate exists. There are no road markings one would usually associate with a bus gate, the advanced warning signs appear to be some way distant from the roundabout, the lack of illumination is shocking and IMO the Council fail in their duty under LATOR 1996 to---- place on or near the road such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road. Remember this is a timed restriction which includes hours of darkness in the winter.

2) We are dealing with a bus gate so the PCN "charge" should indicate buses. It reads that the recipient went through a no entry sign which is daft.The contravention given is not sufficient to explain what the restriction entails.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 09:42
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Twistededge
post Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 18:30
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 09:42) *
If the speed limit is 20mph the signs don't have to be illuminated although it seems particularly dark at the bus gate.

It is 20mph for most of Tower Hamlets' backstreets, but there are no repeater signs around here (AFAIK), just speed bumps and cobbles.

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 09:42) *
2) We are dealing with a bus gate so the PCN "charge" should indicate buses.
I noticed today that there are yellow rectangular signs along the highway warning of a bus gate in Wapping High Street.

As far as I'm aware, the only sign in Wapping itself, that actually uses the word "bus gate", is the blue one photographed above about halfway between the gate and the station.

This post has been edited by Twistededge: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 18:33
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stamfordman
post Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 18:40
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Tower Hamlets is another borough-wide 20 mph zone bar TFL red routes.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 19:45
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It would be good if someone took a photo of the signs without a flash--that would show how inadequate they are.
Mick
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Twistededge
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 19:47
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 19:45) *
It would be good if someone took a photo of the signs without a flash--that would show how inadequate they are.

I go running around Wapping most evenings, so consider it done...

A bit blurry without the flash, and the low-light capabilities of my phone still seems to make them appear brighter than they actually are -- but hopefully helpful...



Warning along the Highway, heading west before Glamis Road -- there are a few of these along the Highway in various places in both directions.


Entry accross Glamis Road, from the Highway


Warning by the station heading west - if you can't see it, the number says 700 yards.


Warning along Wapping High Street -- roughly halfway between station and gate. As far as I know, the only one in central Wapping that actually says "bus gate"

Interestingly, anyone turning right onto this stretch of road, after this sign, won't have any warnings until they actually get to the 'gate'.


Heading through the bus gate, from the East to the west -- if you get this far, you'll need to do a u-turn, potentially into the path of an oncoming vehicle from the south.


Turning east through the bus gate, from the South at Vaughan Way (the only one that's illuminated with its own light, above the no left turn sign)


Straight on through the bus gate, west to east (from St. Katharine Docks)

This post has been edited by Twistededge: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 20:57
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 20:13
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Thanks for that.


I don't know if the signage is bad enough for a LATOR 1996 claim of inadequacy.

Mick
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Twistededge
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 20:53
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I'd suggest that, when approaching a mini roundabout, our training means we look to the right to give way, rather than focus on strange red lines or signs that are so high up you need to be in a truck to read them.

If heading west, and you spot it in time, you're forced to do a U-turn in quite a dangerous place, potentially into the path of a driver approaching from the south, who should also be looking to their right (and not where you're turning around).

In my opinion, the only way to make them clear would be for the council to dump the roundabout and make it something like a T junction with clear stop lines.

This post has been edited by Twistededge: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 20:55
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 08:46
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An addition to my previous point on the PCN being deficient as to the contravention wording:-

The PCN is wholly deficient in terms of Article 6(3) of the ECHR--"the right for an accused to be promptly informed of the accusation against him or her – this must be in a language which he or she understands and the charge must be detailed and adequately precise."

Mick



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Syndicate
post Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 00:06
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How did you solve this? Any success?
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Twistededge
post Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 23:04
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I'm aware that the Bus Gate is going to be reviewed sometime in the next month or so, in order to determine how successful it was and whether it should be extended, or open to local residents.

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summerwinter
post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 17:36
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Got catch by this bus gate lats week.

My friend live in wapping, it was a dark winter night, I was following TomTom's direction, the signage was not the most obvious!!

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johnboy1967
post Tue, 24 Mar 2020 - 18:51
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They won't be looking at this until May. At one point google gave the quickest route as driving through Wapping without any mention of bus gate. There is no warning sign heading East from Wapping High Street until you hit the roundabout.
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