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[NIP Wizard] Rather complicated SJP?
underpressuredri...
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:06
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2019
Date of the NIP: - 77 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 78 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M6 Motorway Southbound
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Hi peeps
I've received a SJP notice relating to exceeding 70mph on the motorway and initially failing to stop. I'm here because I don't know what to do.
Top and tail of it was my other half and I had a row that I thought was the final straw in our relationship. I left the house after he destroyed my phone and macbook in a rage. We had been to a local pub much earlier that evening (I left the house at 1am). He threatened to call the police and was on the phone when I left but I wasn't sure if he was bluffing. I didn't think I was over the limit, although to be honest I really wasn't thinking clearly as we have had a long relationship, four children and I genuinely thought my life as I knew it was over. He had been off work for a year and I thought I'd been supporting him but increasingly, his behaviour was intolerable. I'm not saying that I am completely blameless, there are definitely two sides to every row, however...back to the driving. I set off and didn't register that I was driving too fast, almost 100mph. The roads were quiet and familiar and my speed crept up as I was escaping. I accept full culpability for that. A vehicle did overtake me and asked me to pull over, but I didn't think that the request was aimed at me, so I simply slowed down and carried on. Next thing I knew, I was stopped by three cars in that blocking manoeuvre. I was very scared and it seemed surreal. I was arrested for suspected drink driving and taken to a custody centre. The arresting police officer noticed that my car was packed with all my belongings and was made aware of the damage to my computer and phone. At the centre I did not register as over the limit and the officers were incredibly sympathetic and offered my advice on being in emotionally abusive relationships before letting me go. I was advised that I had been caught over the speeding limit and would probably receive a court notice. I've got a SJP. One officer, who had little contact with me has submitted a witness statement. It details being caught speeding, resisting the initial request to pull over, breathalyzed at the side of the road, taken to the custody centre, then being released without a drink driving charge.
I can't really describe my emotions writing this down, it seems so alien to who I am and how I live, I'm a charity worker who raises money for end of life care...I don't break the law. Anyway, that doesn't matter. What I'd like to know is do I plead guilty and offer mitigation or...do I plead not guilty and request a court hearing with a view to explaining my circumstances? The SJP states that there is a further police witness who can give evidence of the circumstances of the offences, only to be provided by the entry of a not guilty plea. I'm not sure what to do. I do want to pay my due, I don't want to lose my license and independence.
I did return to my family home and I'm trying to make my marriage work.
Any driving charge related advice? Guilty with mitigation or court? Help?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:06:37 +0000
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post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:06
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southpaw82
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:16
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It isn’t immediately obvious that you have a defence to speeding. Is that the only offence referred to in the SJPN? You can, of course, put forward your circumstances as mitigation but I would not expect the court to depart from the sentencing guidelines very much.


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underpressuredri...
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:22
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:16) *
It isn’t immediately obvious that you have a defence to speeding. Is that the only offence referred to in the SJPN? You can, of course, put forward your circumstances as mitigation but I would not expect the court to depart from the sentencing guidelines very much.



I understand that I don't have a defense as such, I'm just wondering which is the best way to be able to access the other police officer's statement (I believe it to be sympathetic) and just make sure that I'm minimizing the penalty as much as possible...If I can avoid a whopping fine and ban, then I'd like to. I am more than prepared to pay for my error though, just fairly?


This post has been edited by underpressuredriver: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:27
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southpaw82
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:43
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QUOTE (underpressuredriver @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:22) *
I understand that I don't have a defense as such


I was obviously confused when you asked whether you should plead guilty or not guilty, presuming that if you held out hope for a not guilty plea that you thought you may have had a defence.

QUOTE
I'm just wondering which is the best way to be able to access the other police officer's statement


I don’t think you can. You can ask for it on the basis that you think it material to your plea (not that I particularly agree that it is) but if they won’t disclose it to you I see no way of forcing them to do so. That assumes that it in fact exists and the true position isn’t that a statement would be produced if a not guilty plea was entered.

There is nothing stopping you putting forward your version of events and I think it is unlikely that it would be challenged by the prosecution, so I don’t see why you would need a statement anyway.


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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:12
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QUOTE (underpressuredriver @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:22) *
If I can avoid a whopping fine and ban, then I'd like to. I am more than prepared to pay for my error though, just fairly?

What speed is alleged?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Mayhem007
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:26
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:16) *
It isn’t immediately obvious that you have a defence to speeding. Is that the only offence referred to in the SJPN? You can, of course, put forward your circumstances as mitigation but I would not expect the court to depart from the sentencing guidelines very much.

Can she claim EH as a charity worker, especially if she relies on her licence to carry out that charity work


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southpaw82
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:34
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:26) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:16) *
It isn’t immediately obvious that you have a defence to speeding. Is that the only offence referred to in the SJPN? You can, of course, put forward your circumstances as mitigation but I would not expect the court to depart from the sentencing guidelines very much.

Can she claim EH as a charity worker, especially if she relies on her licence to carry out that charity work

She can claim EH on any basis she likes but assuming she has a clean licence she’s not at risk of a totting up ban, so EH isn’t applicable. It may be mitigation if the court was considering an outright ban for the single offence.


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speedfighter23
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:46
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:16) *
It isn’t immediately obvious that you have a defence to speeding. Is that the only offence referred to in the SJPN? You can, of course, put forward your circumstances as mitigation but I would not expect the court to depart from the sentencing guidelines very much.


I believe the OP also has a failing to stop charge along with the speeding?
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Mayhem007
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:58
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What is the maximum penalty for failing to stop when directed by police


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Fredd
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 12:02
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:58) *
What is the maximum penalty for failing to stop when directed by police

Band B fine (maximum Level 5), no points.


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Mayhem007
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 12:28
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 13:02) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:58) *
What is the maximum penalty for failing to stop when directed by police

Band B fine (maximum Level 5), no points.

Okay, on the basis of what Southpaw has reminded me EH being used in a totting up bans, can EH be used in driving bans for example 56 days. And do magistrates have the power to give discretionary bans.


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underpressuredri...
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 12:39
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:34) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:26) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:16) *
It isn’t immediately obvious that you have a defence to speeding. Is that the only offence referred to in the SJPN? You can, of course, put forward your circumstances as mitigation but I would not expect the court to depart from the sentencing guidelines very much.

Can she claim EH as a charity worker, especially if she relies on her licence to carry out that charity work

She can claim EH on any basis she likes but assuming she has a clean licence she’s not at risk of a totting up ban, so EH isn’t applicable. It may be mitigation if the court was considering an outright ban for the single offence.



I've got three points that expire in July 2020.
I understand that I've been very irresponsible and deserve to have things come home to roost.
However, I do rely on my car for my job and so I'd rather pay and move on with my life, not sure about EH or totting up...
Any thoughts? (other than around my obvious stupidity)
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underpressuredri...
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 13:02
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There are a couple of additional details that I'm interested in understanding, again, just so that I know how to proceed...
The police statement says that he formed the opinion that I was exceeding 70mph, he looked at his conducted a pace check and concluded that we were between the speed of 92mph and 100mph as against marker posts.

Under the schedule of non-undermining unused material there are 4 items.
Two PNB (police notice book?) entries, DVR car footage and body worn video.

These are identified as a short summary of any material which might be considered capable of undermining the prosecution or assisting the accused or any material falling under paragraph 7.3 of the code.
( 7.3 =

At the same time as complying with the duties in paragraphs 7.1 and 7.2, the
disclosure officer must give the prosecutor a copy of any material which falls into
the following categories (unless such material has already been given to the
prosecutor as part of the file containing the material for the prosecution case):
 information provided by an accused person which indicates an explanation for
the offence with which he has been charged;
 any material casting doubt on the reliability of a confession;
 any material casting doubt on the reliability of a prosecution witness;
 any other material which the investigator believes may satisfy the test for
prosecution disclosure in the Act.)

Without clutching at straws, what am I dealing with here?
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NewJudge
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 13:25
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 12:28) *
Okay, on the basis of what Southpaw has reminded me EH being used in a totting up bans, can EH be used in driving bans for example 56 days.


Not formally, no. EH argument is only available for totting up bans.


QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 12:28) *
And do magistrates have the power to give discretionary bans.

Yes. That's why they are "discretionary". A discretionary disqualification (in place of penalty points) can be awarded for any offence which attracts an endorsement.
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NewJudge
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 13:41
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QUOTE (underpressuredriver @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 13:02) *
There are a couple of additional details that I'm interested in understanding, again, just so that I know how to proceed...
The police statement says that he formed the opinion that I was exceeding 70mph, he looked at his conducted a pace check and concluded that we were between the speed of 92mph and 100mph as against marker posts.

Under the schedule of non-undermining unused material there are 4 items.
Two PNB (police notice book?) entries, DVR car footage and body worn video.

These are identified as a short summary of any material which might be considered capable of undermining the prosecution or assisting the accused or any material falling under paragraph 7.3 of the code.
( 7.3 =

At the same time as complying with the duties in paragraphs 7.1 and 7.2, the
disclosure officer must give the prosecutor a copy of any material which falls into
the following categories (unless such material has already been given to the
prosecutor as part of the file containing the material for the prosecution case):
 information provided by an accused person which indicates an explanation for
the offence with which he has been charged;
 any material casting doubt on the reliability of a confession;
 any material casting doubt on the reliability of a prosecution witness;
 any other material which the investigator believes may satisfy the test for
prosecution disclosure in the Act.)

Without clutching at straws, what am I dealing with here?

What you're dealing with are the rules of disclosure when a matter goes to trial following a Not Guilty plea. If you plead guilty (which, from your description, is your only realistic option) then no evidence at all will be presented to the court. The prosecutor will outline the facts alleged and your guilty plea will indicate that you accept those facts. You cannot force disclosure of anything if you plead guilty on the facts laid out by the prosecution.

You seem to be getting confused with evidence required to convict you (or which should otherwise be disclosed) in the event of a trial and material you would like the court to see to support your mitigation. Quite honestly there is rarely any mitigation in speeding matters which will materially influence the sentence and nothing you have mentioned is likely to do so. Your best bet is to simply explain the situation to the court (if you chose to attend in person) or simply set it out on paper when you respond to the SJPN. You are looking at a fine of a week's net income (reduced by a third for a guilty plea), a surcharge of 10% of the fine (Minimum £32) and £85 costs. Whilst a short ban or up to six points is possible, four points is the most likely outcome. You may also face a fine for failing to stop, though a benevolent Bench or SJ may well impose "no separate penalty" if they accept that the circumstances you described put you under some stress.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 13:43
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Logician
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 13:52
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A speed of between 92 and 100mph would attract 4 to 6 points or possibly 7 to 28 days disqualification. Magistrates tend to prefer giving points as more likely to influence future driving behaviour than a short disqualification. I think you should simply plead guilty to the speeding and failing to stop if that is charged, explaining in the mitigation section that you did not appreciate that the initial indication to stop was directed at you. Mentioning the row is a two-edged sword, it helps to explain your behaviour but raises the question of whether you should have been driving in a highly charged emotional state, which might be seen as an aggravating factor, so be very careful with that.

Pleading guilty will mean that no officer's statement will be produced to the court, the prosecutor will simply outline the facts of the case. Do appreciate that while this is all a huge issue for you, this is simply routine business for the court.





This post has been edited by Logician: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 13:55


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underpressuredri...
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 16:44
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I spoke to a solicitor who suggested that the equipment that clocked me might me uncalibrated, it was a dash cam and body video, therefore unreliable and the charge of failing to stop could be contested...

Also suggested that it's been brought after Christmas to increase conviction figures and it's a result of failing to get the drink driving report that they initially responded to.

Am I being naive, 1) in thinking that I was over the speed limit because I was told I was, 2) in listening to a solicitor who wants a £3k plus vat fee? (half for prep and half for court appearance if necessary?)

Should I just settle and move on, or contest?

Only got the SJP yesterday and so I've been in a bit of a whirl...
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The Rookie
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 16:50
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Well he’s very wrong on the calibration, so wouldn’t trust him on much else to be honest.

As for targets, he’s a fruit loop.

Run far away from him.


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The Slithy Tove
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 16:57
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QUOTE (underpressuredriver @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 16:44) *
Am I being naive, 1) in thinking that I was over the speed limit because I was told I was
Yes. If you're doing around 100, you should be quite aware you are doing over 70. And why would a police officer tell you that you were doing up to 100 if you were actually doing 70 or less? There's nothing in it for them in doing so.
QUOTE (underpressuredriver @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 16:44) *
2) in listening to a solicitor who wants a £3k plus vat fee?
Again, Yes. Any solicitor will be only too willing to relieve you of your hard earned cash. After all, they have nothing to lose. Save it for the fine.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 17:00
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:46) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:16) *
It isn’t immediately obvious that you have a defence to speeding. Is that the only offence referred to in the SJPN? You can, of course, put forward your circumstances as mitigation but I would not expect the court to depart from the sentencing guidelines very much.


I believe the OP also has a failing to stop charge along with the speeding?


Perhaps, which is why I asked if speeding was the only offence charged.

QUOTE (underpressuredriver @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 16:44) *
I spoke to a solicitor who suggested that the equipment that clocked me might me uncalibrated, it was a dash cam and body video, therefore unreliable and the charge of failing to stop could be contested...

Also suggested that it's been brought after Christmas to increase conviction figures and it's a result of failing to get the drink driving report that they initially responded to.

Am I being naive, 1) in thinking that I was over the speed limit because I was told I was, 2) in listening to a solicitor who wants a £3k plus vat fee? (half for prep and half for court appearance if necessary?)

The equipment doesn’t have to be calibrated. A mechanical device, be that a speedometer or VASCAR, is presumed to be working correctly unless you can demonstrate otherwise. Neither the dash cam no body worn camera will be used to determine your speed - at best they will have recorded that evidence of your speed produced by another device, such as a speedometer. They are, therefore, largely irrelevant, unless you’re now saying that you weren’t speeding.

As to whether the charges have been brought to increase conviction figures (a) bollox and (b) so what?

The solicitor appears not to know what he or she is talking about, or you have misunderstood the advice you have been given. What you do is up to you but as I stated earlier, you don’t appear to have any viable defence based on what you have said here.


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