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Ultra Low Emission Zone PCN, Didn't even realise it existed.
JaspaC
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 13:38
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Hi,

On Boxing Day I had to travel to London for work (Lucky Me). I live in Birmingham and followed the sat nav to get to south London and returned on the 29th Dec. I’m not familiar with London’s roads and the place I was working was a new site I’d not been to before. I am however, aware of the congestion charge and made sure to check the cost of this in advance, which I was pleased to find out is suspended between Christmas and new year, so no problems there I thought.

I’ve just received a PCN for the Ultra Low Emissions Zone for £80 (£240) which will almost wipe out any wages I will have earned for volunteering to work on boxing day! Until this arrived I’d never even heard of the ULEZ and didn’t have a clue that there was an additional charging scheme to the congestion charge.

I’ve looked at the location on google maps and I can see the signs at the entrance are all bundled together with the congestion charge signs, so presumably I saw those and continued thinking it didn’t matter as it was suspended during that time. The ULEZ signs aren’t particularly obvious in pointing out that you are entering a charging zone (well, a 2nd charging zone!).

I have since checked and my car (a Peugeot 206 hatchback) does not comply with the ULEZ regulations.
I’ve only received a PCN for my return journey, which I think is because the sat nav took me a slightly different route on the way there, presumably avoiding the ULEZ zone.
As you can see in the google maps photos (attached), there are 8 road signs to read as you drive past, which is quite overwhelming, especially if you need to navigate other cars and pedestrians at the same time. To make it worse, the writing on these signs is quite small, which is difficult to read because you will either be a)moving past them or b) stopped 20m away as there is a box junction in front of the signs. Once you are close enough to read all 8 signs you are already committed to travelling straight ahead. I can’t remember if I had to stop at the traffic lights or not on the day.

There is one sign on the approach to the junction on the far R/H/S (I would have been in the lane on the L/H/S) which has a faint coloured ULEZ logo but no mention of what that means.

After the junction there is a camera sign with the congestion charge symbol, but no ULEZ symbol. Should the ULEZ scheme display these signs too? Presumably it uses the same cameras?

Google Maps Link:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5011986,-0....6384!8i8192

I was heading from East to West on Druid Street and entered the ULEZ after crossing straight over the junction with Tower Bridge Road.

Any help much appreciated,


Jasper





PCN:
Page 4 Page 5 Page 6
Google Maps Screenshots:


This post has been edited by JaspaC: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 13:39
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post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 13:38
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Incandescent
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 14:12
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In order to fight this one, you will have to take TfL to London Tribunals because TfL will not accept that their signs are flawed. In addition, the adjudicators at London Tribunals seem almost to be in cahoots with TfL (I'm not saying they are BTW, just that decisions so far seem to ignore perfectly valid appeal arguments). If you do want to fight this, then you have to forego the discount, and the penalty is a very hefty £180. (grotesquely large IMHO). The argument that the ULEZ signs mean nothing to most people outside London falls on deaf ears, as does the defect in that the sign gives no hint that a charge may be payable to enter the zone. The only argument that seems to win is (1) if a policement directs you off your route into the ULEZ, and (2) the sign is missing or obscured.

Basically the Mayor of London has got your b&lls in a rattrap. There have been very few LT appeals because I suspect t he £180 penalty is just too much to take the risk of appealing.
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Neil B
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 14:40
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Why did you mention £240 ?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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JaspaC
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 16:46
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Neil B, I should have mentioned £160 not £240. I.E. £80 paid within 2 weeks, £160 paid within 4 weeks else £240 paid any later.

Thanks Incandescent, I agree the PCN amount is disgusting and I don't see why a PCN in London should be more harsh on the motorist than elsewhere. So if I were to lose at a Tribunal they would not have to re-offer the discount?
Also, would I be able to attend a tribunal local to me in Birmingham rather than travel all the way down to London again?
It's a ridiculous situation and to be honest it makes me angry just thinking about it.


I've done a bit of research, do you think this would make a credible argument?..



https://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsrgd/tsrgd2016.pdf

Page 132

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...lar-01-2016.pdf
Page 42


The signs do not say 'charging' as the TSRGD dictates and there is no mention of any additional category for ULEZ signage.

This post has been edited by JaspaC: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 16:47
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Incandescent
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 19:21
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Of course you can use the argument you suggest, but don't be disappointed if it doesn't win at London Tribunals. Transport for London have put out all sorts for b*llsh*t about how the zone has been widely advertised but the legal position is that the signs should reflect the restriction and they don't, internet or no internet TfL webpages. But just try telling that to an LT adjudicator !!
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cp8759
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 22:53
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 19:21) *
...the legal position is that the signs should reflect the restriction

Sadly no, the legislation is says TFL must install the signs that TFL thinks are adequate, LATOR does not apply.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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JaspaC
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 13:12
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So just to clarify, will the discount be offered again after an appeal to TfL, just not after a tribunal?

Just wondering if it's even worth sending an appeal.

Thanks
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Incandescent
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 15:39
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 22:53) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 19:21) *
...the legal position is that the signs should reflect the restriction

Sadly no, the legislation is says TFL must install the signs that TFL thinks are adequate, LATOR does not apply.

OK. but an adjudicator can still decide it is not completely sufficient by having nothing to indicate it is a charging zone, but they dont. Pretty unfair IMHO.

As for the discount, there is no obligation on TfL to re-offer it, and no right to it after an adjudication rules against you.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 15:40
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JaspaC
post Yesterday, 11:28
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Thanks Incandescent,

What about after a NOR?

I would love to pick some really obscure road signs and ask the Tribunal Adjudicator to explain their meaning, just to demonstrate my point. Sadly £160 is just too high a price for that satisfaction.
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hcandersen
post Yesterday, 11:42
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OP, TfL are not obliged to re-offer the discount at any stage.

In fact we don't even know when the first discount expires because you've deleted the date of issue of the PCN so while you go on about prospective discounts you are in danger of missing the first!!

What is the date of issue?

. I am however, aware of the congestion charge and made sure to check the cost of this in advance,

How? What website? The ones I've looked at also refer to ULEZ!

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JaspaC
post Yesterday, 12:49
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Thanks,


I removed the date from the PCN because I thought it would be sensible not to make it easy to identify, I thought this forum advised that? Luckily I haven't erased it from the actual PCN or from my memory so I won't miss the discount deadline.


This is the website I checked after googling it (first result) and I stopped reading when I got to the line about the charge not applying over Christmas.

J

This post has been edited by JaspaC: Yesterday, 12:49
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