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Lost PCN
bleurgh
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 11:20
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Hi there,

I'm hoping you're able to help me out with an issue I'm having.

A few weeks ago, my residents parking permit came up for renewal. I got the new one, as normal, but was unfortunately away when it arrived. That meant that while my permit was continuous, there was a gap of 36 hours or so during which I didn't have the permit on display in my car.

As you probably expected, it was during that brief time that I was got by an enforcement officer. It was a code 19.

But I never actually saw the PCN. (In fact, I'd been congratulating myself on my luck for not getting ticketed!) The first I heard of it was a notice to owner that arrived in the post the other day.

With the information from the NtO I was able to see the picture that the council had taken of the ticket on the windscreen. But it was slapped on the glass, rather than stuck under the wiper, and you can see from the pictures that it was the kind of weather that would have blown it off, which I presume is what happened.

As a result, I've got three questions:

– Is there any chance that I'll be able to get the council to go back to the discounted charge as it would have been on the PCN? I never actually got a chance to pay it at that price, of course. And £40 feels significantly more do-able.

– How should I go about asking to see a copy of the PCN? The council only gives me the option of making formal representations, which I don't want to do (yet), but I also don't want to run out the time while waiting for them to reply.

– Is there any chance that I will be able to appeal on the grounds that I did actually have the permit, but that it wasn't displayed? I've got all the emails showing that it was ordered and granted on time.

Thanks ever so much in advance for your help.

This post has been edited by bleurgh: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 11:23
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post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 11:20
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stamfordman
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 11:31
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You must make reps within deadline on the NTO.

There is a good chance they will cancel it even the short gap although if there was an expired permit it looks like it may be one of the hardball councils that doesn't give any grace.

You will be able to get the discount back at least.

Post the NTO.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 11:31
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bleurgh
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 21:18
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Ah great, thanks so much. That's comforting. Here's the NtO:

https://ibb.co/sR2m5Vk
https://ibb.co/sQGHBxd
https://ibb.co/KV1X1m8
https://ibb.co/QHdJgx2

(I've blocked out the distinguishing bits but obviously let me know if there are any of those that are important!)

Thanks ever so much again.

This post has been edited by bleurgh: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 21:20
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stamfordman
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 21:39
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Newham are the worst of the worst and don't give a grace period for expired permits. But they should cancel this given that you renewed and were away. You need to make some firm assertive reps - draft something for comment here.

This thread shows some thinking:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t114301.html

What is the date and time of contravention.

I presume this is a free permit?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 21:40
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bleurgh
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 17:29
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Yep, free permit. It was 8.44 on the morning of the 5th of December, and the permit expired on the 3rd.

How's this?

To whom it may concern,

I'm writing to appeal against a parking fine I have received from Newham council.

I am a longterm resident of the road and have always made sure to have a valid permit whenever my car was parked outside our house. But sadly I received the ticket after the permit displayed in my car lapsed. I had been away and as a consequence did not have time to place the new permit in the car – I did so at the first opportunity. While the permit on my windscreen was out of date, I did have a permit continuously. I expect you can see this from your records, but I would be very happy to provide the emails to you that show I had requested the new permit ahead of the expiry of the old one. (It is a free permit, and so I had nothing to gain from not displaying it.)

Given that I have always made sure to have a parking permit, and that at the time I received the ticket I did have a valid permit, I kindly ask that you reconsider the ticket.

As a separate issue, the Notice To Owner was the first I heard of this contravention, since I did not see the PCN. The photos uploaded to Newham's website make clear that it was placed on the car – but on the windscreen rather than in the wiper, on what appears to have been a day of very bad weather, and so it presumably blew off. As such, I would be very grateful if we could proceed on the terms of the PCN, and if you were able to provide a copy of it to me.


Thanks!
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stamfordman
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 18:17
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This needs beefing up.

You renewed the permit and it was mailed to your house on xxxx ?

You away from xxx to xxx (any proof) ?

On return on xxx you were able to put permit on car.

A key point - can you put the new permit on the car before the old one expires?
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bleurgh
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 21:54
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Thanks. Have put together the proper timeline and it goes like this:


23/11: Apply for new parking permit
25/11: Permit application approved, with message that it should arrive in 10 working days. (Not sure when exactly it did.)
1/12-4/12: Away in US. (Have proof)
3/12: Permit expiry date
5/12: PCN given.

I can't precisely remember when I put the permit on the car, sadly, though it was very soon after I arrived, but I think it was the evening of the 5th. It may have been possible to have them both on: there's no pouch or anything, but they're a little messy and I wanted to leave it in the corner of the windscreen.

As it turns out, and as you can see above, though the permit expired while I was away, I was actually back in the country at the time the PCN was supposedly left... (I can only plead jet lag and busyness: I got back early on the morning of the 4th, went to work, came back home, went straight to sleep and then the PCN was put on there. I don't know if they'll take that as mitigation!)

What would you say is the best way to phrase the request to go back to the price including the discount on the PCN? If it's possible to sort that out for certain I'll feel more than half the weight off my shoulders...
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stamfordman
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 10:04
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Well I would fudge the return bit without telling untruths.

You did apply quite late for a renewal.

I would say:

I am making representations against the PCN on the grounds that I had a valid permit but was delayed slightly putting it on my car owing to a business trip to the United States.

I am a longterm resident of the road and have always made sure to have a valid permit whenever my car was parked outside my house. In this case the old permit expired on 3 December and I was able to put the new one on the car on 5 December having returned from my trip, but a PCN had apparently been issued. This new permit is of course valid from 3 December. At no point did I not hold a valid permit.

Please also note that I found no PCN on the car.

I hope this minimal delay in displaying the new permit that was valid on the day of the PCN meets with your policy on grounds for cancellation owing to fairness given the circumstances.

I enclose a copy of the new permit for your inspection.

yours

--------------

Reason I asked about the old/new situation is can you take the old one off as soon as you get the new one - i.e is there only a valid 'to' date and not valid 'from and to' dates.



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spaceman
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 17:48
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 10:04) *
...but was delayed slightly putting it on my car owing to a business trip to the United States.


Only they weren't!

This wording clearly implies that they were 'away' when the alleged contravention occured.

By the OP's admission, they came home on the 4th. Went to work for the day. Slept all night. All before the pcn was issued.

The OP simply forgot to display their permit. Understandable. It happens. But it's nothing to do with 'a business trip'.

This post has been edited by spaceman: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 17:48
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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 21:11
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QUOTE (spaceman @ Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 17:48) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 10:04) *
...but was delayed slightly putting it on my car owing to a business trip to the United States.


Only they weren't!

This wording clearly implies that they were 'away' when the alleged contravention occured.

No it doesn't, it impels that as a result of the trip bleurgh had been rushed for time. I would send what stamfordman has drafted.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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