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PCN - contravention 31. Yellow box junction., Request for CCTV footage, nearly 56 days ago, still outstanding.
Pinksox17
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 09:39
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As the registered keeper, I have received a PCN from the London Borough of Brent - contravention 31 "Entering and stopping in a junction box when prohibited" Date of notice 22/11/29.

I was invited to view the CCTV via www.viewmypcn.co.uk. I made the request on 30/11/19, and signed up for notifications, but I am still waiting to see the footage. I have checked back several times, and each time I am met with the following message:
"There is a delay in processing your request, the site may be delayed during periods of high demand, administrators have been notified. If you opted to be notified via email or text message then you will receive notification as soon as your still images and video footage are ready for viewing. Alternatively please try again a little later.".

On 02/01/20, a charge certificate was issued, this is despite the original PCN stating the following:
"Upon receipt of your request will we suspend progress of your case and will respond to your request within a reasonable time. Once the images have been sent to your address or a recording has been viewed at our offices, as appropriate, progress of your case will continue."

I have been to the Brent website for the first time today, and discovered that I was able to view further still images, that were not originally sent to me. There are 3 images, approximately 18 seconds apart. The first shows the driver on the edge of the box in the left-hand lane; the second shows the driver in the box and a pedestrian stood, in the road, in the right-hand lane; the third shows the driver on the other side of the box in the right-hand lane.

As the contravention is a moving offence, I think that having the CCTV footage is integral to the case. However, I am unsure of what to do next, and was hoping that someone could advise me.
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post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 09:39
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stamfordman
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 11:18
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Second one of these - review this thread:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=132481

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 11:24
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Pinksox17
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 04:05
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Thank you!!!
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hcandersen
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 08:20
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I do not understand the equivocation in the thread posted within this one.

The council's policy as such is irrelevant, it is not the task of the motorist to seek out council policies, their task is to read and act upon the PCN. And a motorist is entitled to assume that what they are directed to do forms part of council policy. Yes, we know that most of the requirements are imposed on the council by law, but a motorist isn't required to know, just act upon the PCN.

And the PCN states that progress of the PCN would be stayed in any of three situations. All the OP has to do is to establish that one of these applies. If one does, then they should make representations now. They're easy: penalty exceed the amount applicable on the circumstances of the case. Frankly this is no different in principle than if the CC had been sent within the original 28 days because, of course, it was sent within this period which, by virtue of the council's obligation and undertaking, is 28 days plus whatever float time is added which complies with one of their three options.

OP, it would be nice if you had posted sooner, but we are where we are. You say the CC was issued on 2 Jan. which gives a date of service of 6th. and last date for payment of 19th. I say payment, but what this means is that no further action would be taken by the authority until at least this date. You therefore have until 19th to do something. What you do depends on your evidence.

So step-by- step and date-by-date and screenshot-by-screenshot take us through what you did. It would also help if you posted the exact provision from the PCN as it applies to the actions you took e.g 'There are three ways in which you can arrange viewing..First you can request to view it online at ***.....Upon receipt .....we will suspend.....' etc. Just the full words as they apply to method you used.


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Pinksox17
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 16:56
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-The PCN notice date is 21/11/2019.

-I received the PCN on 28/11/2019, it may have arrived sooner, but I was away from home.

-I first requested the records and images from viewmypcn.co.uk on 30/11/2019.

-I went back to viewmypcn on 04/12/2019, 22/12/2019, 03/01/2020 and 13/01/2020. Each time I was greeted with the message posted below when I input the details of my PCN:

"There is a delay in processing your request, the site may be delayed during periods of high demand, administrators have been notified. If you opted to be notified via email or text message then you will receive notification as soon as your still images and video footage are ready for viewing. Alternatively please try again a little later."


-The PCN states the following:
"There are three ways in which you can arrange viewing of certain records or images, free of charge. First, you can request to view it online at www.viewmypcn.co.uk...Upon receipt of your request we will suspend progress of your case and will respond to your request within a reasonable time. Once the images have been sent to your address or a recording has been viewed at our offices, as appropriate, progress of your case will continue."

As the website had acknowledged that I had requested the images and records, I made the assumption that this had been registered with the council and proceedings had been halted.


-I received the Charge Certificate on 13/01/2020.

-On 14/01/2020, I went to Brent website and discovered that I was able to view still images. This is when I discovered that the charge certificate is recorded as being issued on 02/01/2020.

-I sent the letter advised in the thread that I was linked to yesterday, and today I received a response, which says the following:

"Thank you for your communication received in this office in response to the Charge Certificate sent to you in connection with
the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
I must inform you, that there is no representation of appeal at the Charge Certificate stage.
Your comments have been noted, as such we are willing to allow you to pay the discounted amount as stipulated below.
This letter is to present the options now available to you, and to outline how you may make payment.
You now have the choice of making payment at the reduced amount of £65.00 within 14 days of the date of this letter, after this
date the amount will revert back to the charge certificate rate of £195.00, and additional costs will be incurred.
Should you choose not to make payment, please follow the statutory procedure as set out below, which is in accordance with
legislation.
If payment is not received this debt will be registered against you at Northampton County Court, Traffic Enforcement Centre
(TEC) and an Order for Recovery will be served. The order sets out the options available to you. (at this stage the PCN will
have increased by £8.00).
If the Traffic Enforcement Centre believe that a formal opportunity to object was not given, or that the Council did not consider
a formal objection. The Court may then instruct the Council to re-issue a Notice to Owner and consider an objection."



That's everything, step-by-step.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 17:30
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Not quite complete....

I sent the letter advised in the thread


And you said exactly what??
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Pinksox17
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 07:52
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 17:30) *
Not quite complete....

I sent the letter advised in the thread


And you said exactly what??


"Dear London Borough of Brent,

I submit this representation after the end of the 28 day period but I have compelling reasons why this representation should be considered on its merits. The rear of the PCN states:

"There are three ways in which you can arrange viewing of certain records or images, free of charge. First, you can request to view it online at www.viewmypcn.co.uk...Upon receipt of your request we will suspend progress of your case and will respond to your request within a reasonable time."

I duly requested the records via the www.viewmypcn.co.uk website on 30 November 2019 and on numerous occasions since and on each occasion I received the following message:

"There is a delay in processing your request, the site may be delayed during periods of high demand, administrators have been notified. If you opted to be notified via email or text message then you will receive notification as soon as your still images and video footage are ready for viewing. Alternatively please try again a little later."

I did opt for an email notification to be sent, but none has been received, and the website is still displaying the same message. I understand there is no requirement to provide videos at this stage, under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, but where the council makes a commitment to suspend enforcement of its own volition, it cannot then resile from that agreement.

It follows that in issuing a Charge Certificate while I was in receipt of a written assurance from the council that enforcement would be suspended while I waited for the video, the council has breached its duty of fairness and service of the Charge Certificate is an abuse of process.

In the circumstances it is clear that the council should consider these representations on their merits. It is also clear that the penalty now demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, therefore the penalty must be cancelled."

I enclosed a pdf of my browser history showing the dates of the visits.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 08:47
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My inclination is that you should wait for the next notice, an Order for Recovery, and submit your statutory declaration that you made representations but did not receive a Notice of Rejection.

Wait for the views of others, but my take is that your 'communication' (how I hate this term (and 'correspondence'), FFS it's a letter or email or pigeon post..and how I detest when they do not refer to its date and when received..you cannot get the staff nowadays) was representations made within the 28-day period specified in, and modified by actions taken pursuant to instructions in, the PCN.

OP, let's just clear the decks of all extraneous info and focus on and set out the key details - I know they're in the thread somewhere, but setting them out in a single post helps:

PCN dated;
Initial request made to view the video made on ***, how ***;
Info conveyed to you after making the request stated ***;
Were you ever notified that you could view the video in the manner specified in the PCN?
Repeat attempts to engage with the video viewing procedure made on *****;
Representations made by ** on ***;
Response received from authority by *** on *** disregarding those representations;


IMO, the legal position - which is a minimum of the regulatory period and a maximum of whatever the authority has obligated itself to do - is that the last day for submission of reps which the authority were obliged to consider is incapable of being determined from the PCN because it is contingent upon other factors. And if indeed these are in the hands of a third party then the period is beyond the direct control of either the owner or the authority.

When you set out the missing info we can calculate and insert the acid test date which is the end date of the period during which reps must be considered by the authority.
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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 19:23
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 08:47) *
My inclination is that you should wait for the next notice, an Order for Recovery, and submit your statutory declaration that you made representations but did not receive a Notice of Rejection.

I agree with this but for a different reason, the regulation in this regard says:

(2)The statutory declaration must state that the person making it—
...
(b) made representations to the enforcing authority under paragraph 1 above but did not receive a notice of rejection from that authority


There is no mention of the representation being within 28 days or within any particular timeframe. Of course, if the representation is made out of time and there is no justification for it being late, the tribunal would simply direct that the penalty be paid (possibly even at the surcharge rate) but in this instance, there is a very compelling argument that the case should be listed as an appeal instead.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Pinksox17
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 13:40
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 08:47) *
My inclination is that you should wait for the next notice, an Order for Recovery, and submit your statutory declaration that you made representations but did not receive a Notice of Rejection.

Wait for the views of others, but my take is that your 'communication' (how I hate this term (and 'correspondence'), FFS it's a letter or email or pigeon post..and how I detest when they do not refer to its date and when received..you cannot get the staff nowadays) was representations made within the 28-day period specified in, and modified by actions taken pursuant to instructions in, the PCN.

OP, let's just clear the decks of all extraneous info and focus on and set out the key details - I know they're in the thread somewhere, but setting them out in a single post helps:

PCN dated;
Initial request made to view the video made on ***, how ***;
Info conveyed to you after making the request stated ***;
Were you ever notified that you could view the video in the manner specified in the PCN?
Repeat attempts to engage with the video viewing procedure made on *****;
Representations made by ** on ***;
Response received from authority by *** on *** disregarding those representations;


IMO, the legal position - which is a minimum of the regulatory period and a maximum of whatever the authority has obligated itself to do - is that the last day for submission of reps which the authority were obliged to consider is incapable of being determined from the PCN because it is contingent upon other factors. And if indeed these are in the hands of a third party then the period is beyond the direct control of either the owner or the authority.

When you set out the missing info we can calculate and insert the acid test date which is the end date of the period during which reps must be considered by the authority.


Sorry that it's taken so long to get to this.

Here is the information you requested:

-PCN 18/11/2019 ( Date of notice 22/11/19)

-Initial request made to view the video made on 30/11/19 via www.viewmypcn.co.uk

-After making the request, and waiting the advised 24 hours, I was greeted with this information when I attempted to log back into the website:
"There is a delay in processing your request, the site may be delayed during periods of high demand, administrators have been notified. If you opted to be notified via email or text message then you will receive notification as soon as your still images and video footage are ready for viewing. Alternatively please try again a little later."

-Repeated attempts to request the footage were made on 04/12/2019, 22/12/2019, 03/01/2020 and 13/01/2020.

-I received two notification that I could view the video in the manner specified in the PCN on 31/01/2020 and 03/02/2020.

-Representation was made via an online form on 15/01/2020.

-Response received from authority by email on 16/01/2020 disregarding those representations.

I have now received an Order for Recovery dated 05/03/2020. I live between 2 addresses, and due to annual leave and Covid-19, I had to get someone to forward all my post so it only arrived yesterday. Ignoring the fact that I've been advised not to leave the house for 12 weeks, as I'm classed as extremely vulnerable, can someone advise on what I'm meant to put in the box that says:

"My reasons are (give full reasons)"

I want to get the form completed, so I can be ready for whatever happens next.

Thank you for your help.
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cp8759
post Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 21:55
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Well if you're classed as extremely vulnerable and are quite literally at risk of death if you leave the house, you cannot be expected to file a statutory declaration, which is somewhat problematic. I would email the Traffic Enforcement Centre on Monday and ask what contingency plans they have to deal with this.

https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/...ment-centre-tec

I would also follow up with a phone call.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Pinksox17
post Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 13:44
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 21:55) *
Well if you're classed as extremely vulnerable and are quite literally at risk of death if you leave the house, you cannot be expected to file a statutory declaration, which is somewhat problematic. I would email the Traffic Enforcement Centre on Monday and ask what contingency plans they have to deal with this.

https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/...ment-centre-tec

I would also follow up with a phone call.


I contacted the TEC and got the following response:

"As an interim measure we have decided to accept a Stat Dec/ Out of times, if the appropriate number of grounds are indicated, it is signed by the respondent and it hasn’t been sworn."

My understanding of the wording is that I can return to declaration without it being witnessed by a Commissioner of Oaths? If so, what information should I submit in the box labelled "My reasons are (give full reasons)?" My grounds are that I did not receive a Notice of Rejection.

Thank you for your support so far.
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DJ Lexy
post Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 14:33
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The "reason" box on the out-of-time is nothing to do with the original PCN. It's just your excuse/reason for submitting late - that's all.

A lot of people make that mistake and go rambling about PCNs and procedural impropriety on the out-of-time statement, which ruins their case because you only get one shot at an OOT.

This is all you need:

QUOTE
I currently live between two addresses. My V5C is registered at one of these addresses, and I visit that address often.

Ordinarily, I would have been able to pick up my mail and respond to the statutory declaration in a prompt manner. However, because of the COVID-19 situation, I am self-isolating at the other address. As a high-risk individual with underlying medical conditions, I have been advised by my doctor to self-isolate for 12 weeks. For this reason, it was several weeks before I received the mail from my other address, and regrettably missed the deadline on this Statutory Declaration.


As for the reason for your statutory declaration: I forget the exact words, but one of the boxes says something like "I appealed the Notice to Owner but a Charge Certificate was issued before I received a Notice of Rejection.
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Pinksox17
post Wed, 8 Apr 2020 - 16:15
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QUOTE (DJ Lexy @ Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 14:33) *
The "reason" box on the out-of-time is nothing to do with the original PCN. It's just your excuse/reason for submitting late - that's all.

A lot of people make that mistake and go rambling about PCNs and procedural impropriety on the out-of-time statement, which ruins their case because you only get one shot at an OOT.

This is all you need:

QUOTE
I currently live between two addresses. My V5C is registered at one of these addresses, and I visit that address often.

Ordinarily, I would have been able to pick up my mail and respond to the statutory declaration in a prompt manner. However, because of the COVID-19 situation, I am self-isolating at the other address. As a high-risk individual with underlying medical conditions, I have been advised by my doctor to self-isolate for 12 weeks. For this reason, it was several weeks before I received the mail from my other address, and regrettably missed the deadline on this Statutory Declaration.


As for the reason for your statutory declaration: I forget the exact words, but one of the boxes says something like "I appealed the Notice to Owner but a Charge Certificate was issued before I received a Notice of Rejection.


I am completing a statutory declaration, unpaid penalty charge. I am not completing an out of time, as I have been granted an extension. I've submitted the declaration with minimal information in the reasons box, and hope this will be enough. Thank you for your help.

This post has been edited by Pinksox17: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 - 16:59
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