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PCN Chatham, Can this be challenged?
Roscoe
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 20:58
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Hey all

New on here but was directed here via a google search, so hopefully you can help.

I am challenging this as i feel its wrong, and want to know if there were technicalities i see are true or am i wasting 14 days.

Brief of what happened:

Basically im a delivery driver and had a parcel to deliver, outside the shop is a zig zag after a zebra crossing, i parked there and gave to customer outside his shop in that brief time warden ticketed me. I tried to reason with her but sge aaid its illegal so i went opposite in the double yellows, went back to reason and she tried to hand me the ticket which i refused. Then 5 weeks later i got this PCN.

1. its dated 13/11 but got it 23/12 - over 28days
2. the obs time is 12:23:17 - 12:23 (no secs) - why?
3. The photos show me in the first one reasoning at 12:23 sexond pic is my van the other aide of the road - would support me moving instantly.
4. The PCN says i drove away, but 2nd pic at 12:24 shows im on the other side if the road - relevant??

I see this warden everyday and a week later i told her if i get it through ill challenge it and her behaviour, and she showed me the photo saying i was illegal bit is there a way to prove this was there then? she targets me everytume and usually im cirrectly done but this one i messed up .... the time it took for this pcn to come through and the fact that she had shown it to me a week later on her device surely i can challenge.

ill pay if i have to as i was wrong but literally not even a min there, plus she.knows its my livelyhood so its a challenge between us niw

This post has been edited by Roscoe: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 22:03
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post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 20:58
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Incandescent
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 21:31
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The plain fact is you were wrong to park on the zig-zags, in fact if the police had got there first, you'd be facing a fixed penalty and three points on your licence as well ! You also refused the PCN so they have now issued a postal one that they are perfectly entitled to do.
Being on the zig-zags is an offence and there are no exemptions like loading or dropping off passengers, so no observation is necessary. You really do need to mug-up on where you can park to make deliveries. Zig-zags are out, but single and double-yellows allow loading unless specially marked with signs and kerb blips. I'm not sure what you expected the CEO to do, ("I tried to reason with her "); she had produced and attempted to serve a legal PCN. Once produced, they must serve it, if you disagree with it then all representations must go to the authority employing her, not the CEO.

I reckon the discount is your best option at the moment.
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Roscoe
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 21:36
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 21:31) *
The plain fact is you were wrong to park on the zig-zags, in fact if the police had got there first, you'd be facing a fixed penalty and three points on your licence as well ! You also refused the PCN so they have now issued a postal one that they are perfectly entitled to do.
Being on the zig-zags is an offence and there are no exemptions like loading or dropping off passengers, so no observation is necessary. You really do need to mug-up on where you can park to make
deliveries. Zig-zags are out, but single and double-yellows allow loading unless specially marked with signs and kerb blips. I'm not sure what you expected the CEO to do, ("I tried to reason with her "); she had produced and attempted to serve a legal PCN. Once produced, they must serve it, if you disagree with it then all representations must go to the authority employing her, not the CEO.

I reckon the discount is your best option at the moment.


Okay, if the engine is on, am i parked??

My point is which i tried to tell her is literally i stopped outside wherr the cist was standing and gave parcel, in one min i had done that, briefly spoken and mobed over the road to the yellow lines which was more an obstruction...

Also is there a 28 day producer rule??

i know she didnt issue this within a week cos it was still on her phone ....
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 21:49
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Are you the owner/RK ? Do you hold the v5c? Is the address on the v5c the same as the one you reside at/ do business from?


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Roscoe
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 22:05
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Yes im the RK
Yes i hold the v5c
Yes its the same address as both business registered and reside in

Plus on the same vehicle, in the same council i had a ticket for going through the entire bus centre (i totally messed uo the one way system ) ..... i got that well within a week

Also the ticket states that it couldnt be issued on the van as i drove it away, one photo at 12:24 after it was issued shows my vam.on the other side of the road which could easily be ticked for the original offence, no???
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 22:15
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Then subject to a couple of exemptions, (the only one that can apply being that the DVLA failed to supply the information) the PCN is served out of time and is therefore invalid

Reg 10(4) of the act

(4) Subject to paragraph (6), a regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device, or information given by a civil enforcement officer, the contravention to which the penalty charge notice relates occurred (in these Regulations called “the 28-day period”).


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Roscoe
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 22:20
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Cheers for that, its appriciated. I thought there would be a time limit but when i looked it it, its 28 workimg days to the day. But im assuming its 28 calender days

This post has been edited by Roscoe: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 22:22
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 22:27
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(6) Where this paragraph applies, notwithstanding the expiration of the 28-day period, an enforcement authority shall continue to be entitled to serve a regulation 10 penalty charge notice—

(a) in a case falling within paragraph (5)(a), for a period of six months beginning with the appropriate date; or

(b) in a case falling within paragraph (5)(b) or ©, for a period of 4 weeks beginning with the appropriate date.

Paragraph (6) applies where—

(a) within 14 days of the appropriate date the enforcement authority has requested the Secretary of State to supply the relevant particulars in respect of the vehicle involved in the contravention and those particulars have not been supplied before the expiration of the 28-day period;

(b) an earlier regulation 10 penalty charge notice relating to the same contravention has been cancelled under regulation 23(5)©; or

© an earlier regulation 10 penalty charge notice relating to the same contravention has been cancelled under regulation 5 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations.

So the only one that can apply is A but that is as rare as rocking horse sh1t. The council request this information electronically and it is responded to usually the next day. It is more likely the council request was late


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Roscoe
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 22:34
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okay, thanks for that...... no doubt ill be seeing rocking hourse sh??t soon 😂😂😂
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hcandersen
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 22:48
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The exemptions are not the OP's concern.

The authority's evidence is that the contravention occurred on 13 Nov. and the PCN was issued and posted on 23 Dec, therefore presumed served on 27th.

The OP says they received this on 23rd, the day of posting.

I'm confused.

But putting this to one side, the period between the contravention and date of service is 45 days, well in excess of the 28 permitted.

As the OP has no other grounds of defence, procedural impropriety/penalty exceeded .....circumstances of the case both apply.

It is the authority's burden to show that the prima facie evidence does not support grounds of representation.

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Roscoe
post Fri, 27 Dec 2019 - 23:51
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Cheers ..... 45 days is excessive and prior ones, ive recieved through the post after a week. Which i will use as my defence on the time taken. When im in the wrong i pay it, but this one i feel aggreved to as technically yes im wrong, but i moved straight away. Even the police i think would understand and use there initiative. But this one is a different breed .... every other warden knows me and doing a tien centre you need to park in resident only, red line etc. by they give at least a few mins mire grace ... this one hates everyone im sure
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cp8759
post Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 00:14
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Well parking on pedestrian zig-zags is a criminal offence with no grace periods, so you can hardly blame the CEOs for doing their job. On the other hand, the PCN is late so it's invalid. Post a draft representation on here for review before sending it off.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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Roscoe
post Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 01:59
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Yh i know parking on the ZigZag is Criminal, but pulling over, being next to the van whilst running for less then a miniute would be okay ... Note to.self. Only reason i did it as where i would park opposite blocks the whole road, it just seemed sensiable but pulled up a bit short of the D. Yellows.....

I was just going to put the appeal reason Procedural Improprierty.

PCN is served out of time and is therefore invalid


The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007

(4) Subject to paragraph (6), a regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device, or information given by a civil enforcement officer, the contravention to which the penalty charge notice relates occurred (in these Regulations called “the 28-day period”).

Im thinking with writing this they will reject it, forcing them to at adjoudicatiin show the timeline of the DVLA, showing it was in time from them, then i can show other post fines paid. To the same van.and same address.

As we all know this is ALL i have to stand on, and the more they cover up themselves. The more information they will need to probive without me requesting it
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Incandescent
post Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 09:55
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Apologies for not looking at the dates.

Yes, the PCN has been served at nearly double the legal limit of 28 days !! So a clear case of procedural impropriety here, and your reps should result in cancellation of the PCN. If they refuse, you just take them to the adjudicators, and they'll collapse.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 11:53
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PCN *****

I refer to the above which states as far as is relevant:

Date of contravention: 13 Nov.
Date of issue and posting: 23 Dec.

This is a period of 41 days.

Subject to limited exceptions, the authority are prohibited from serving a PCN by post after a period of 28 days, therefore the authority had no power to serve the PCN unless they can establish that one of these applies. You must therefore either cancel the PCN or state and establish upon which exception you rely.

For these purposes the contravention itself is not the issue, therefore I should be grateful if your reply would deal with the substantive grounds above and not dwell on the contravention.
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cp8759
post Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 12:55
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QUOTE (Roscoe @ Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 01:59) *
Yh i know parking on the ZigZag is Criminal, but pulling over, being next to the van whilst running for less then a miniute would be okay ...

No, there is no but, you cannot pull over on the zig-zags not even for 5 seconds. Now you know for next time.

Send the representation hcandersen has drafted, don't add anything about the contravention, send it exactly as it's been written for you.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Roscoe
post Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 15:32
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Yes no i do know for next time!!

Many Thanks

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 28 Dec 2019 - 11:53) *
PCN *****

I refer to the above which states as far as is relevant:

Date of contravention: 13 Nov.
Date of issue and posting: 23 Dec.

This is a period of 41 days.

Subject to limited exceptions, the authority are prohibited from serving a PCN by post after a period of 28 days, therefore the authority had no power to serve the PCN unless they can establish that one of these applies. You must therefore either cancel the PCN or state and establish upon which exception you rely.

For these purposes the contravention itself is not the issue, therefore I should be grateful if your reply would deal with the substantive grounds above and not dwell on the contravention.



Thank you for this, i have sent it as written
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Roscoe
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 17:57
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Hey Guys

So i sent in the drafted letter (big thanks again). And they have come back as they claim the DVLA was late back to them which gives extended time.

Im now stuck as to reply as:
1. i have paid at least 4 tickets (all my fault) on the same van
2. I have a parking permit from this authority again on this van

So if they have this stored, why wouldnt it be flagged up?

Im just speculating now so im hoping that someone can guide me the best way forward.

Pleaee find repky letter attached
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Neil B
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 20:12
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Well they've given you a further risk free 14 days -- although we don't know the date of their response?

Councils apply for and are given details by DVLA through a secure electronic link.
It happens within a couple of working days max and it is virtually infallible.

Yet they don't say what went wrong, when they applied, when a response came?

I suggest you challenge them to show what they are saying is true.

Wait for further opinions also.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Roscoe
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 20:56
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Sorry there responce came today, so i guess 14 days from 20/01/19

I cannit prove this but a few days later i was seething and warden trued to ticket me, i basically said you didnt put the tixket o thw van, and she showed me a pic of the van on thw zebras saying ahe dont need to put it on as instant.

So i need to see when it was processed
When DVLA responded?

Would i need to put i a written request?
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