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Rental Van NIP, 12 weeks to be notified
fr4gmented
post Fri, 4 Aug 2006 - 18:24
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Hi - I'm new here - great site

Somewhat suprised to receive a NIP today relating to a journey made 5/5/06 some 12 weeks ago.

The offence is listed as - EXCESS SPEED (CLASS OF VEHICLE)

This was on a main dual carriageway in Wales and I'm told the van was doing 73.

This is a very long road and I have no recollection of being flashed or which one of us was driving as we changed drivers occassionaly.

Doesn't tell me what the penaly, fine points is going to be.

Sections 86 & 89 Tried a google search what are these about?

What to do ?

John
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post Fri, 4 Aug 2006 - 18:24
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MartinHP71
post Fri, 4 Aug 2006 - 18:40
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Hiya,

If you complete the NIP Wizard and post the results on here, people will be able to help you.

NIP Wizard
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fr4gmented
post Fri, 4 Aug 2006 - 18:47
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OK

Will do


John

Hi Having filled the from in I only seem to havr the option of starting new topic.

Can I post it on this one?

John
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crystal
post Fri, 4 Aug 2006 - 20:29
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Hi,

Just cut and paste it and add to this thread - we like 1 case 1 thread round here ;-)

Regards
Crystal
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fr4gmented
post Fri, 4 Aug 2006 - 21:47
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Hows this:

What is the name of the Constabulary? - gwent
Date of the offence: - May 2006
Date of the NIP: - 90 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 91 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A449 Llandenny
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Transit rental van
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I have no idea where I was flashed - gunned whatever.
Don't know the road [looked it up on Google]
We did travel that road on that day, its a very long road and I don't know which one of us was driving.
Even if I was shown the exact spot I wouldn't know.
I'm from the Midlands and this road is in Wales.
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crystal
post Fri, 4 Aug 2006 - 21:56
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Hi,

Could do with more info on the area really as it looks like it could be a vague locus. I guess the wizard recomend pace ?

See if anyone here has more information on the loction, in the mean time check the vague locus and pace arguments

Regards
Crystal
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fr4gmented
post Sat, 5 Aug 2006 - 07:32
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Hi Crystal

Thanks for the reply. whats a 'vauge locus'

As I said the road must run for 30 / 40 miles and I have no idea where this happened.

The Google search on the NIP location suggests it was about half way up.


John
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MartinHP71
post Sat, 5 Aug 2006 - 09:37
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Hiya

Vague Locus is where the location on the NIP is not specific enough to identify where the offence took place. For example location of A14 is not specific enough.

If you click on the search button and put in +Vague +Locus you will find some threads which has discussed the defence.
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Shamus
post Sat, 5 Aug 2006 - 10:42
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Hi,

Facing something simlar myself so you have my sympathy, 90 days for NIP to reach me... Cant remember what I did 9 days ago let alone 90...

Anyway, the A449 Llandenny would propably be the second bridge on the A449 between the A40 and the first exit where the A472 to Usk is.

Unfortunately even though those stretches of road are dual cariageway as A roads they restrict goods vehicles to 60, many have been caught out that way.

There are four bridges in total (I think) on a five mile stretch and one that leads to Llandenny which will be the one they refer to, so vague locus may be a non starter. icon_hang.gif

Advice I received from a solicitor was that unless I received the NIP through registered post or signed for it in any way was to ignore it and it would bounce back to the registered keeper, but in my eyes thats neither fair or legal and could get you into trouble. icon_hang.gif

My advice would be to ask for pictures to help identify driver which they will send. If they dont help say so and offer to go in and watch video to help identify driver (they will say only if it goes to trial).

Send in letter saying driver could have been you or your friend, provide both your details and list what you have done to determine who was driving at the time and include NIP and S172 form.

Keep copies of all corresponddence and send special delivery so you have proof of posting and receipt if needed. Gather all the inconclusive evidence ie phone bills, credit card receipts, etc that you may have which don't help you.

You may find they drop it, (I am hoping they do with me).

If they don't you should have a very good chance of getting off as long as both of you turn up at court and have the same story.

If it does go to court insist on seeing the video, especialy if they are going to use it as evidence, if the video does show one of you then its not too late to hold your hands up and say it was me or point at your mate.

Good luck and hope it goes well. I am still waiting to hear from CPS on mine.

Lots of wise heads here so listen to their advice they could very well have much better ideas and a lot more experience then me.
iamwithstupid.gif

Also if you can drag it out, it could time out, another option I am hoping for with mine...

This post has been edited by Shamus: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 - 11:10
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fr4gmented
post Sun, 6 Aug 2006 - 14:30
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OK

We [me & my son] had this hire van to do some site surveys for signs.

We were up at 4am drove down to Bath, on to Bristol, over to Cardiff, back up to Cheltnham.

It was between the Cardiff & Cheltenham leg that we were zapped.

We took turns in driving, sleeping. I know We changed drivers on theis road because he woke me up.

I have not idea who was driving at the time of being flashed, as I said even if they showed me the bridge

[assuming it was a bridge] where the camera was I still wouldn't help me identify who was driving not only

am I unfamilier with this long road it was 12 weeks ago.

So do I ask for the photos to see it that helps the identification?

John

This post has been edited by fr4gmented: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 - 14:32
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crystal
post Sun, 6 Aug 2006 - 15:00
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Hi,

If you are unsure of the driver yes ask for the photo. Ask in writing for a"photo to aid identifcation of the drive at the time of the alleged offence"

DO NOT ask for evidence (you cant have that yet) make the letter polite and to the point. Send signed for delivery and keep a receipt and print of the proof of receipt from the royal mail website (takes about 3 days for the sig to be there)

Do not send anything else until you have the photo.

Regards
Crystal
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gas man
post Sun, 6 Aug 2006 - 15:33
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i would try and go for the time out on this as your half way to the 6 months already biggrin.gif , make a paper trail and only reply to the letters just within the 28 day period by 'signed for' post.
as crystal has already suggested, asking for the photos to help identify the driver would be a good start.

try a letter something like this

--------------------------------------------
Date


Address etc.

Dear Sir/Madam,

NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSECUTION NO : **********

With reference to the above notice number, I would be grateful if you could supply me with any photographic evidence of the alleged offence so that I may identify the driver.

On the day specified, there was more than one driver of the vehicle and unfortunately we are unable to come to any definitive conclusions as to who the driver was.

I look forward to receiving the photographs at your earliest convenience and should there be any problem with this I would appreciate your prompt response.

Yours Faithfully,

Your name.

--------------------------

then post back on here with the details of their next correspondance

This post has been edited by gas man: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 - 15:34
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crystal
post Sun, 6 Aug 2006 - 15:37
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Hi,

Letters ok if you remove the word evidence it gets them twitchy biggrin.gif

Regards
Crystal
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fr4gmented
post Wed, 30 Aug 2006 - 17:28
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OK time to ask for the photo.

As we were on company business in a hire van should I use company headed paper or a personal letter.

Regards

John
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andypandy
post Wed, 30 Aug 2006 - 20:39
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if the nip is addressed to the comapny then use a letter head.

Keep it simple


QUOTE
Dear Sir/Madam,

NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSECUTION NO : **********

With reference to the above notice number, I would be grateful if you could supply me with any photographsphotographic evidence of the alleged offence so that I may identify the driver.


--------------------
Regards

Andy

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andy_foster
post Thu, 31 Aug 2006 - 01:14
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If the NIP is addressed to the company, it is for the company to deal with - unless the OP is the company.

fr4gmented,

What is the score with that vehicle? How long did you have it for? Did you take it home with you? Have personal use of it?


--------------------
Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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The Rookie
post Thu, 31 Aug 2006 - 05:35
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I still think the Locus is vague, it could have said a bridge but doesn't....

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?cli...0000&addr1=

arguably the locus could cover from theA40 down to the Usk exit.....

It may be worth putting a para into your letter along the lines of "please could you include a more accurate location to assist in determining who was the driver at the time"if they do provide this, then it is evidence you can take to court to argue that it wasn't correct in the first place!

Simon

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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fr4gmented
post Thu, 31 Aug 2006 - 07:31
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Andy

I had the vehicle for three days, did take it home.

Rookie

Even if they gave me a more accurate location it wouldn't help me identify the driver as I hane on recolection of where or when we changed drivers.

John
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Roblynmouth
post Thu, 31 Aug 2006 - 09:05
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A couple of points to consider with any NIP;

1. Ask for a copy of the Traffic regulation order [TRO], as this is the means by which a speed limit is legal, no TRO no speed limit. The copy they send you should show the seal, again no seal no legality. Check the distances and location of the order. If the Scammers are going to rely on a restricted road defence [30mph and street lights] then you need to check that all the lamp columns are 187metres apart, any more than that [even one set, and one Cm] means that the 30 mph restriction is not correct. However not all 30mph limits rely on street lamps, so don’t assume, ask for the TRO. One final thing if the council rely on street lamps and there are repeater signs on the road then the restriction is incorrect and they need to have a TRO
2. Under Young V Day, this is an example of a good description of a NIP location;
M9 Edinburgh/Perth Motorway, Craigforth District of Stirling at a part near to the A84 Overbridge,
So is this one;
M4 Near Tolls Plaza Rogiet Monmouthshire W/B,
However this is not;
A449 LLANDENNY
Under Young V Day the Divisional Court [a higher court so therefore binding on the magistrates court] refused to set aside a decision by the justices that a notice of intended prosecution under the Road Traffic Act 1930 [s. 21] was insufficiently particular where it stated the place of the offence of dangerous driving. Further details can be found [http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=8795]. Whilst the case is about not misleading the defendant, if you don’t live there then how can you be expected to know where they are talking about if the location isn’t precise?
3. Remember most Safety Cameras Partnership offices are manned by ‘two men and a dog’ relying on you doing nothing except what they want you to. If everybody who received a scamera ticket were to challenge the ticket even on the basics, the system would melt down especially bearing in mind the various time out opportunities that exist in the law.
Don’t get mad get even
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fr4gmented
post Thu, 31 Aug 2006 - 09:58
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Ask for a copy of the Traffic regulation order [TRO], as this is the means by which a speed limit is legal, no TRO no speed limit. The copy they send you should show the seal, again no seal no legality.


I'm not sure that this would help me as I was ignorant of the law [no excuse I know] that panel vans are limited to 60 except on a motorway - I was doing 73, thinking 70 was the limit not 60 as I was in a rental van.

Just as an aside, I think ALL hire companies should display this van speed limit inside the vehicle so old codgers like me who haven't seen a highway code for 40 years and don't drive vans for a living would be reminded of this law.

This post has been edited by fr4gmented: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 - 09:58
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