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Contravention: 01 Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
bigpoppa
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 09:28
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Hi all,

I am new to this forum and hope someone can help.

I was parked in a bay which has a single yellow line which was Calthorpe Road, Edgbaston, Birmingham and I got a ticket for a code 1 contravention. I appealed this and it was rejected by Birmingham city council and now I have the option to take it to a tribunal for appeal but not sure if I should do.

Here is the letter I have received from them now -

https://freeimage.host/i/HujkCl
https://freeimage.host/i/HujOQ4
https://freeimage.host/i/HujNjf
https://freeimage.host/i/HujwTG
https://freeimage.host/i/Hujhps

Any help or support would be great.

Thanks.
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post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 09:28
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stamfordman
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 09:46
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We can't possible help unless you tell us what your reps were and show us where you parked, plus post the council pics.

And what happened to the PCN - did you also challenge this and get rejected? Or did you just wait for the notice to owner?

As you have lost the £35 discount there is nothing to lose by going to the tribunal.

You must reinstate all dates and times on any docs.


Here's the road:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4690763,-1....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 09:46
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DancingDad
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 11:20
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What Stamford says.

The NOR refers to "legality" of the PCN, as though you had queried that?
Without knowing what you said, we cannot know if they are simply batting away a valid point or if you had submitted a dodgy challenge.

I suspect you were in one of the parking bays that expire at 16.30 but you must show us the council pics and specific streetview location.
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bigpoppa
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 19:58
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 09:46) *
We can't possible help unless you tell us what your reps were and show us where you parked, plus post the council pics.

And what happened to the PCN - did you also challenge this and get rejected? Or did you just wait for the notice to owner?

As you have lost the £35 discount there is nothing to lose by going to the tribunal.

You must reinstate all dates and times on any docs.


Here's the road:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4690763,-1....3312!8i6656


Thanks stamfordman.

I challenged the PCN and it was also rejected. The date on the doc was 13/09/19 as below -

Date 13/09/2019
Time 16:43
Make AUDI
Colour Red
Was seen in Calthorpe Road Edgbaston
Contravention Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours

My letter to them was as follows -

Dear Sir/Madam

The alleged contravention did not occur. The traffic regulation order fails to define what a “restricted street” is and it does not prescribe that it is a contravention to park in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

Contravention code 01 was originally devised by the London Councils and reflected the fact that London council’s traffic orders made specific reference as to what is to be considered “restricted street”. This can be seen in the example below (for reference, Schedule 1 concerned No Waiting restrictions);

“restricted street” means any street within the London Borough of Lewisham specified in Schedule 1 (hereinafter referred to as a “scheduled street”) and includes, except where the context otherwise requires, so much of every other street within that London borough which is not a scheduled street or a street specified in Schedule 4 and which joins any scheduled street as lies between the kerb line of the scheduled street and a point 18.29 metres distant therefrom and any reference in this order to any restricted street shall be construed accordingly, provided that the expression “restricted street” shall not for the purposes of this order include–

(a) any area on a highway or any place within the London Borough of Lewisham for the time being designated or described as a parking place by any order made or having effect as if made under section 6 or section 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984;

(b) in its application to a street specified in column (2) of Schedule 5, that length of street which extends 18.29 metres measured in the direction specified in column (3) of that schedule from the kerb line of the scheduled street specified in column (4) of that schedule, and in this definition the expression “kerb line” in relation to a scheduled street shall mean that imaginary line which is the projection of the line formed by the edge of the main carriageway of the scheduled street adjacent to its junction with the side in question of any other street;

© any length of street designated as red route;

The London boroughs would not go to the trouble of taking great care to specifically define what is a “restricted street” if it served no purpose and was unnecessary. Without a traffic order defining “restricted street” then it is reasonable to apply common language. The commonplace definition of “restricted” is thus; “place limits on, confine, restrain”. Therefore, in essence, the PCN informed me that I parked in a street during hours that the street is subject to parking restraints. It does not however inform me of how the vehicle contravened a particular parking restraint or even what parking restraint was contravened. It is highly important to note that not all parking restrictions prohibit parking (eg: parking place restrictions) and so parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours is not a contravention by default since it can be lawful. It is only a contravention if the traffic order is drafted correctly in the manner exampled above.

A street is often subject to a number of differing parking restrictions. For example, one particular parking bay in a street may be restricted to permit holders only between the prescribed hours of 9am to 6pm while another parking bay may be restricted to Pay & Display between the prescribed hours of 8am to 6pm. However, a person who lawfully parks their vehicle in ether bay during the prescribed hours is doing just as my vehicle was also doing, that being, “parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours”. Quite simply, the ground stated on the PCN is not fit for purpose since it does not distinguish between a vehicle that is lawfully parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours and one that is not.


The use of this equivocal ground is potentially prejudicial as a person may prepare an appeal focusing on a parking restriction that is not actually relevant to the reason why the PCN was served. For instance, many PCN’s are served upon vehicles that are parked partly in a parking space with either their front or rear end slightly overhanging an adjacent single or double yellow line. Often where this happens a PCN is served upon the vehicle for being “parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours”. However, due to the diverse meaning in plain English of this ground, the recipient of the PCN may wrongly but reasonably assume that they contravened the parking place restriction rather than be aware that they fractionally infringed upon the “No Waiting” yellow line restriction. In the interest of justice a person needs to easily comprehend why their vehicle was not considered lawfully parked so that they can either avoid doing so again or gather the relevant evidence for any subsequent appeal.

It must also be remembered that the ground on the PCN will be repeated on the NtO and the owner may not have been the driver. Therefore, unless an NtO is accompanied each and every time by adequate photos of the signage, the owner when applying common language will not be able to deduce with certainty what parking restriction the expression “restricted street “concerns and was allegedly contravened. The general principles of law dictate that a person should not have to decipher the ground stated on a PCN or guess what restriction was allegedly contravened; it should be unequivocal. In a day and age when the UK is host to a wealth of visitors and residents whose first language is not English and when central and local Government both readily advocate the use of plain English on all public forms and documents it is nonsensical to use language on a PCN that is ambiguous or may require a person to refer to the glossary of a far away traffic order to gain a degree of understanding of what they allegedly did wrong.

The council may be using the standard contravention codes but it should be remembered that these contravention codes have no statutory authority and cannot be relied upon as a defence as made clear in the key adjudication case between Metrick v Camden (Case no 207034396A).

I find the ground of “parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours” to be unsupported as a parking contravention prescribed by the traffic order. The order may prohibit waiting in certain lengths of road at certain times but the order does not define and correlate waiting restrictions with being "restricted street" nor does it define and correlate what is considered "prescribed hours". It is critical to remember that the purpose of a PCN is to encourage people to park lawfully, so it stands to reason that a person needs to know precisely what they did wrong in order to avoid doing so againThe ground given on the PCN is ineffective in conveying what I allegedly did wrong and as such it does not satisfy paragraph 1(e) contained within the Schedule to “The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 and the penalty charge should be cancelled forthwith rather than drag this matter to adjudication.

yours xxxxxx

The council images are here -

https://imgshare.io/image/qQB7e
https://imgshare.io/image/qQ1fw
https://imgshare.io/image/qQg08

Let me know if you need anything else. Thanks.



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 11:20) *
What Stamford says.

The NOR refers to "legality" of the PCN, as though you had queried that?
Without knowing what you said, we cannot know if they are simply batting away a valid point or if you had submitted a dodgy challenge.

I suspect you were in one of the parking bays that expire at 16.30 but you must show us the council pics and specific streetview location.


Thanks DancingDad, you should have all the info now in my reply to stamfordman

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Incandescent
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 20:40
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Well if that is what you submitted then you have lost, game, set and match. Did you write all that or get if off a dodgy webiste ? However, take it all the way to Judicial Review if you want, but you ain't going to win with that.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 20:40
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hcandersen
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 21:49
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I parked there because?

I parked when the parking place was in effect i.e. before 4.30 but was delayed in my return because?

I had a BB on display but it fell into the footwell?

My dog ate my homework?

Or, I parked because I felt like it and didn't care a toss about the restriction?

Why not start at the beginning. After all, you cannot make matters worse and we might even find something.
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DJ Lexy
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 23:36
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You got a PCN for parking in a street in Birmingham. Why did you reply with paragraphs of nonsense about imaginary kerbs in Lewisham?
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bigpoppa
post Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 07:40
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 21:49) *
I parked there because?

I parked when the parking place was in effect i.e. before 4.30 but was delayed in my return because?

I had a BB on display but it fell into the footwell?

My dog ate my homework?

Or, I parked because I felt like it and didn't care a toss about the restriction?

Why not start at the beginning. After all, you cannot make matters worse and we might even find something.


I parked there because I did not fully understand the sign and thought I was OK after 4.30pm.

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 20:40) *
Well if that is what you submitted then you have lost, game, set and match. Did you write all that or get if off a dodgy webiste ? However, take it all the way to Judicial Review if you want, but you ain't going to win with that.


I got it from another website as they had won a code 1 with this letter. So are you saying I should not waste my time and not go for a review at all?
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Neil B
post Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 09:03
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QUOTE (bigpoppa @ Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 07:40) *
I got it from another website as they had won a code 1 with this letter.

Let's have a link so we can warn people! rolleyes.gif


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 09:24
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OK, so you say the sign mislead you, but the council sign photo shows a pretty much normal sign for a yellow line - the yellow top part bans parking for 2 hours of the day Monday - Saturday , (4.30pm to 6.30pm). Then the lower part for the same days, restricts the time allowed to park to 2 hours between 7.30 in the morning to 4.30 in the afternoon. The rest of the day, i.e. from 6.30pm through to 7.30 the next morning there are no parking restrictions, and also there are none on Sundays because Sunday is not mentioned.

If you post up the original PCN, it can be looked at for fatal errors of mandatory content that have won appeals in the past, but these are much rarer now than they once were.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 09:26
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Post the PCN and NTO.

Only delete/obscure personal details, leave in all dates, locations and times etc.

Other than finding a technical argument, I don't see anything to justify your effort in going to adjudication.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 10:21
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I got nothing.
Except a warning that if you go to tribunal with that challenge on the table, you are likely to have costs invoked against you.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 10:39
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Lesson learnt for the OP. One has to ask how likely it is that all the many millions of yellow line PCNs are invalid.
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cp8759
post Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 15:23
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QUOTE (bigpoppa @ Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 07:40) *
I got it from another website as they had won a code 1 with this letter. So are you saying I should not waste my time and not go for a review at all?

I doubt anyone won anything with that to be honest. If you show us the PCN and the council photos we can always check if there's a proper basis to appeal.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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bigpoppa
post Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 09:21
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 09:24) *
OK, so you say the sign mislead you, but the council sign photo shows a pretty much normal sign for a yellow line - the yellow top part bans parking for 2 hours of the day Monday - Saturday , (4.30pm to 6.30pm). Then the lower part for the same days, restricts the time allowed to park to 2 hours between 7.30 in the morning to 4.30 in the afternoon. The rest of the day, i.e. from 6.30pm through to 7.30 the next morning there are no parking restrictions, and also there are none on Sundays because Sunday is not mentioned.

If you post up the original PCN, it can be looked at for fatal errors of mandatory content that have won appeals in the past, but these are much rarer now than they once were.


Here is the PCN

https://imgur.com/Clczwb2

https://imgur.com/Efy116X
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bigpoppa
post Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 09:39
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 09:24) *
OK, so you say the sign mislead you, but the council sign photo shows a pretty much normal sign for a yellow line - the yellow top part bans parking for 2 hours of the day Monday - Saturday , (4.30pm to 6.30pm). Then the lower part for the same days, restricts the time allowed to park to 2 hours between 7.30 in the morning to 4.30 in the afternoon. The rest of the day, i.e. from 6.30pm through to 7.30 the next morning there are no parking restrictions, and also there are none on Sundays because Sunday is not mentioned.

If you post up the original PCN, it can be looked at for fatal errors of mandatory content that have won appeals in the past, but these are much rarer now than they once were.


Here is the NTO

https://imgur.com/9xHuxpQ
https://imgur.com/B4X9qWx
https://imgur.com/m90CuDB

Thanks.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 09:26) *
Post the PCN and NTO.

Only delete/obscure personal details, leave in all dates, locations and times etc.

Other than finding a technical argument, I don't see anything to justify your effort in going to adjudication.


Here is the PCN

https://imgur.com/Clczwb2

https://imgur.com/Efy116X

Here is the NTO

https://imgur.com/9xHuxpQ
https://imgur.com/B4X9qWx
https://imgur.com/m90CuDB

Do guys think it's worth going ahead with this or just paying the fine? Not sure which way to go now as some think it's not worth it...

Thanks.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 09:03) *
QUOTE (bigpoppa @ Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 07:40) *
I got it from another website as they had won a code 1 with this letter.

Let's have a link so we can warn people! rolleyes.gif


Here's the link -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=3164984

Like I said some people have used this and won.

Thanks.
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bigpoppa
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 22:49
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Can anyone help with this?
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 22:58
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QUOTE (bigpoppa @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 22:49) *
Can anyone help with this?

Maybe, you need to give us:

1) The council's photos, these should be available on the council website.
2) A link at the location on google street view.

QUOTE (bigpoppa @ Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 09:39) *
Here's the link -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=3164984

Like I said some people have used this and won.

Not for over 7 years.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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bigpoppa
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 23:46
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 22:58) *
QUOTE (bigpoppa @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 22:49) *
Can anyone help with this?

Maybe, you need to give us:

1) The council's photos, these should be available on the council website.
2) A link at the location on google street view.

QUOTE (bigpoppa @ Tue, 10 Dec 2019 - 09:39) *
Here's the link -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=3164984

Like I said some people have used this and won.

Not for over 7 years.


Here are the photos of the car from the council again -

https://imgshare.io/image/qQB7e
https://imgshare.io/image/qQ1fw
https://imgshare.io/image/qQg08

Google location - https://www.google.com/maps/place/Calthorpe...33;4d-1.9199613
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cp8759
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 00:06
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You look banged-to-rights to be honest. Did you just misunderstand the sign? A plea for discretion seems like the only way forwards.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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