Letter from JBW...what shall I do? Options

[driver1010]

Hello All,

I am new to the forum and I am hoping that I can receive some advice about the next step.

Today I receive a letter from JBW, mentioning that I violated the bus lane rule in July 2019 The letter gave me a real surprise because of the penalty amount: £408!!
The JBW letter stated that the council has sent me a couple of penalty charge notices since July, but the thing is that I never receive any of them!

After browsing some old posts on Pepipoo, I soon realised that it could be due to my house relocation took place in 2017. Although I updated the address on my driving license, I did not know that the v5c document has to be updated separately...

So my question is: is there any way for me to appeal at this stage, so the penalty can be reduced to the original amount? I know that the mistake is down to me, but I am just very frustrated as I don't even get a chance to review the case, and the penalty has become more than £400!?
I do have evidence of my house relocation and my new address is showing on my driving license. In some of the old posts, some people tried to appeal using the PE2 and PE3 forms, but I am not sure whether this is applicable to my case.

Many thanks!

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[stamfordman]

We see so many of these. The out of time forms are free to do and will buy some time but it is likely to be opposed by council.

Post the notice. Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.


You must update the V5C in any case now.

[Neil B]

We see so many of these.

Like London buses today!

[driver1010]

We see so many of these. The out of time forms are free to do and will buy some time but it is likely to be opposed by council.

Post the notice. Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.


You must update the V5C in any case now.

Hi Stamfordman,

Thanks for the reply. Is the OOT form the same to the PE2 form?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...ion-out-of-time

In the PE2 form, it states that "This declaration must be sworn before a Commissioner for Oaths (e.g. a Solicitor), a Justice of the Peace (at any Magistrates Court) or an officer of your local county court before sending the declaration to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at the above address."

Q1: I am not too sure about this process...can I just bring the letter to a local court and ask them to sign the document for me?

Q2: And would I be able to submit both PE2 and PE3 form together?

Many thanks,

[Neil B]

Is the OOT form the same to the PE2 form?
Yes.

In the PE2 form, it states that "This declaration must be sworn before a Commissioner for Oaths (e.g. a Solicitor), a Justice of the Peace (at any Magistrates Court) or an officer of your local county court before sending the declaration to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at the above address."

Q1: I am not too sure about this process...can I just bring the letter to a local court and ask them to sign the document for me?
You generally need an appointment.
It's more about you swearing an oath. Do not sign the forms until told to do so.

Q2: And would I be able to submit both PE2 and PE3 form together?
Yes, you must.

Many thanks,

But do show us what you write first.

Which council is this?

[driver1010]

Is the OOT form the same to the PE2 form?
Yes.

In the PE2 form, it states that "This declaration must be sworn before a Commissioner for Oaths (e.g. a Solicitor), a Justice of the Peace (at any Magistrates Court) or an officer of your local county court before sending the declaration to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at the above address."

Q1: I am not too sure about this process...can I just bring the letter to a local court and ask them to sign the document for me?
You generally need an appointment.
It's more about you swearing an oath. Do not sign the forms until told to do so.

Q2: And would I be able to submit both PE2 and PE3 form together?
Yes, you must.

Many thanks,

But do show us what you write first.

Which council is this?

Hi Neil B,

Thank you for the reply. The PCN was issued by Manchester council. Here is what I am intending to write:

************************************

PE2:
Dear Sir/Madam,

The penalty charge notices (PCN) for both cases was sent to an old address that I no longer live in (XXX).
One of the case (£408) has been transferred to Bailiffs and the other case
(same reason, same location, £98) only arises when I contacted Manchester council, the latter
case will soon be handed over to Bailiffs as well.

Due to the fact that I did not receive the PCN at the first place and I did not have time to raise any response within
the given time frame stated in the PCN. I sincerely hope that TEC can approve my out of time declaration
application, so I can have more time to deal with the penaly cases. Raising more than £500 in such a short period
is going to impact our financial situation…we have two kids (1 year old and 2 years old) to raise at home.

Kind Regards,

************************************

PE3:
Dear Sir/Madam,

As mentioned in the PE2 form, the penalty charge notice (PCN) for both cases was sent to an old address that
I no longer live in (XXX). One of the case (£408) has been transferred to Bailiffs
and the other case (same reason, same location, £98) will also soon be handed over to Bailiffs as well.

Due to the fact that I did not receive the PCN at the first place, I did not have a chance to pay the correct penalty
in full. I understand that I made a mistake by driving into the bus lane, and I am willing to pay the penalty, but
the amount is really beyond my affordbility at this stage (I have two kids at home, 1 year old and 2 years old
girls). The reason why I drove around the region is because I was taking my 1 year old daugher to the Manchester
Roayl Eye Hospital (Oxford Road, M13 9WL) for doctor appointments. She had appointments on 03/07/2019
and 21/08/2019 respectively (I have attached a hospital letter as a proof).

As you can see from your system that both bus lane cases happened at the same location. If I receive the first
PCN in time, I would definitely pay the penalty in full and learned my lesson, so the same mistake will not
happen again! I understand that I violate the traffic rules, but I am hoping that there is a way for the penalty
amount to be re-adjusted to the original amount, instead of £408...

I sincerely hope that my request can be approved, as raising more than £500 in such a short period of time
is going to impact our financial situation. I am also contacting DVLA to find out the reason why the PCN is not sent to
my home address. So the same issue will not happen in the future.

Kind Regards,

************************************

[DancingDad]

Don't send them!

More later if no one else has picked up.

[Neil B]

and the other case
(same reason, same location, £98) only arises when I contacted Manchester council, the latter
case will soon be handed over to Bailiffs as well.

No, no, no , no !!!

Phone TEC immediately 0300 123 1059.

Ask if you may still file an 'in time' declaration, using PE3 only.

[driver1010]

Hi Neil B,

Many thanks for your prompt reply.

Sorry but I am a bit confused. I was told to submit PE2 and PE3 together. What makes my PE2 invalid?

Is it because of my latter case occured in Auguest this year?

[Neil B]

Have you phoned TEC re the £98 one?

Do so asap.

[driver1010]

Hi Neil B,

I am phoning them now, queue #31...

By contacting the council this morning, the £98 case is still with the council and will only be transfered to Bailiffs on 14th December.



So do you suggest that I need to file a PE2 for only the £408 case, and PE3 for both £408 and £98?

[Neil B]

That's what we're about to find out.

PE3s alone, when in time, mean the matter is automatically reset.

On your draft -- erm, no, not good. We'll come back to that.

[driver1010]

Hi Neil B,

Just received a confirmation from TEC:

£408 case: needs both PE2 and PE3
£98 case: PE3 only (but it needs to be submitted by next week Tuesday 4pm).



Regarding the draft letter...is there any sample letter that I can follow to increase the sucess rate?

[Neil B]

£98 case: PE3 only (but it needs to be submitted by next week Tuesday 4pm).

Good. That just saved you an extra £75 bailiff fee as well as the £68 that will be wiped off
---- and then we'll later see if we can beat the PCN too.

You only need to tick a the appropriate box.
If you insist on writing anything in the details box then just >
'I did not receive the PCN due to a change of address.'

Regarding the draft letter...is there any sample letter that I can follow to increase the sucess rate?

No because every case is different.

I'm going to be harsh. You've written a load of waffle. Understandable because you really don't have a reason
for filing late.
Frankly, whatever you write Manchester will almost certainly object and you'll be refused.
I think, for you, the only purpose is to delay payment as enforcement will be suspended for 4-6 weeks.
Sorry to have to give the bad news.

See what other members say.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 15:39

[hcandersen]

OP, let's be clear.

You are legally required to maintain your registered keeper contact details with DVLA.
You did not.
Notices which were sent to the registered address did not reach you.
This is your fault.
The authority are entitled to pursue you and have done to the stage of issuing a warrant - https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-r...egulations-2014

The £408 comes from £310 (£235 and £75) bailiff charges and £98 council penalty.
You will not avoid the penalty, but this is the lesser part anyway. IMO, your only possible angle is the bailiff's charges.

So:
what address is stated on their warrant?
to what address was the Compliance Stage notice sent?

Find out from the bailiff now.

As you can see from the breakdown of charges, if your other £98 penalty goes to the stage of a warrant being issued then as per Neil B another £75 would be added. Submitting a PE3 in time avoids this. NB. your grounds are that you did not receive the PCN. The stage does not care a hoot about why, only what.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 16:39

[driver1010]

Hi Neil B and Hcandersen

Thank you both for the input. I will amend my form accordingly.

Hcandersen: I understand that I won't be able to avoid the penalty. In fact, I will be more than grateful if the bailiff charge can be adjusted.
The JBW letter was sent to my current address two days ago, and all the previous PCN were sent to my previous address (and I receive none of them). This is the information I obtained from the council.

Kind Regards,

[hcandersen]

To be clear:

The Compliance Stage notice was addressed to the old address;
The Enforcement Stage notice was addressed to your current address?

[driver1010]

Hi Hcandersen,

If the PCN letters = compliance stage
and JBW letters = enforcement stage.

Yes that is correct. When I received the letter from JBW, it was the first time I knew about the bus lane violation.

Kind Regards ,

[Neil B]

No, in both instances he's talking about JBW notices.

One will have been sent for £173 = compliance stage - to where?

Then one for £408 = enforcement stage.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 18:21

[hcandersen]

OP, and read the link I posted.