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Sold car, received notice of further steps due to not IDing driver
Jumpgates
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:11
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Hi all, you were recommended on several pages I've visited trying to piece together what I should do.

I sold my old car several months ago. A few days ago I received a notice of further steps for a fine in the high £800's as I had failed to give identifying information on the driver of the car who was caught speeding.

The car was sold and v5 sent off on the day of sale. Obviously there is delay between sending it and updating and I'm not 100 percent sure of the date of sale. The first thing I did was call the dvla for proof I was not the keeper at the time of the offence. The lady said she could see the vehicle had been transferred but that I would have to apply for a v888 form for detailed information and that can take up to 2-4 weeks and costs 5 pounds.

The car was registered to my previous address and all mail regarding this issue I have not received, the first thing I've had is this notice of further steps so it was all a shock.

I phoned my local magistrates today to make a statutory declaration that I have not received any correspondence in regards to this until now. Any advice would be appreciated. I had to hound the relevant court for more info regarding this fine, they never answer the phone and are barely responding to my emails. They asked for a number to call me and discuss my options but I've had no call. Thanks for taking the time to read this!

This post has been edited by Jumpgates: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:12
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post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:11
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cp8759
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:54
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Did DVLA never send you an acknowledgment that you were no longer the keeper? Normal advice is to chase DVLA if confirmation is not received within 4 weeks.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Jumpgates
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:58
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No, I dont remember receiving a confirmation letter from them. Though that may have gone to the old address also
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Logician
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:00
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The DVLA might have sent the confirmation by email if you had given them your address.

After you make the stat dec, your conviction will be set aside and enforcement stopped, but you will be charged with the same offences again. What you need to establish now is whether the original offence, probably speeding, was on a date before you sold the car or after, if it was before and you were driving, there is a simple well-established procedure, under which you agree to plead guilty to speeding in exchange for the s.172 charge being dropped, assuming you were originally charged with the index offence as well, which is usual.

If you were not the driver or the index offence occurred after you sold the car, you will have to defend the s.172 charge, which will be made more difficult by your contribution to your failure to receive the notices. We get so many posts where failure to put mail forwarding in place has led to just these difficulties.


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Jumpgates
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:25
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:00) *
The DVLA might have sent the confirmation by email if you had given them your address.

After you make the stat dec, your conviction will be set aside and enforcement stopped, but you will be charged with the same offences again. What you need to establish now is whether the original offence, probably speeding, was on a date before you sold the car or after, if it was before and you were driving, there is a simple well-established procedure, under which you agree to plead guilty to speeding in exchange for the s.172 charge being dropped, assuming you were originally charged with the index offence as well, which is usual.

If you were not the driver or the index offence occurred after you sold the car, you will have to defend the s.172 charge, which will be made more difficult by your contribution to your failure to receive the notices. We get so many posts where failure to put mail forwarding in place has led to just these difficulties.


So either way, I'm better off facing the speeding fine than the other charge?

I denied this was me in an email to the court who sent me the email however.
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NewJudge
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:41
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QUOTE (Jumpgates @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:25) *
So either way, I'm better off facing the speeding fine than the other charge?

I denied this was me in an email to the court who sent me the email however.

You cannot "face the speeding charge" if you were not the driver (either because you had already sold the car or because you still had the car but were not driving it at the relevant time).
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andy_foster
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:44
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QUOTE (Jumpgates @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:11) *
Hi all, you were recommended on several pages I've visited trying to piece together what I should do.

I sold my old car several months ago. A few days ago I received a notice of further steps for a fine in the high £800's as I had failed to give identifying information on the driver of the car who was caught speeding.

The car was sold and v5 sent off on the day of sale. Obviously there is delay between sending it and updating and I'm not 100 percent sure of the date of sale. The first thing I did was call the dvla for proof I was not the keeper at the time of the offence. The lady said she could see the vehicle had been transferred but that I would have to apply for a v888 form for detailed information and that can take up to 2-4 weeks and costs 5 pounds.

The car was registered to my previous address and all mail regarding this issue I have not received, the first thing I've had is this notice of further steps so it was all a shock.

I phoned my local magistrates today to make a statutory declaration that I have not received any correspondence in regards to this until now. Any advice would be appreciated. I had to hound the relevant court for more info regarding this fine, they never answer the phone and are barely responding to my emails. They asked for a number to call me and discuss my options but I've had no call. Thanks for taking the time to read this!


Can you provide us with a chronology of events - when did you sell the car, when did you notify the DVLA, when did you move house?
If you check your licence on the DVLA website, you should be able to see the date of the s. 172 offence (endorsement code MS90) - which would enable us to determine when the NIP was sent, and hazard a rough guess as to the date of the original offence.




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"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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Jumpgates
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:52
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:44) *
QUOTE (Jumpgates @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:11) *
Hi all, you were recommended on several pages I've visited trying to piece together what I should do.

I sold my old car several months ago. A few days ago I received a notice of further steps for a fine in the high £800's as I had failed to give identifying information on the driver of the car who was caught speeding.

The car was sold and v5 sent off on the day of sale. Obviously there is delay between sending it and updating and I'm not 100 percent sure of the date of sale. The first thing I did was call the dvla for proof I was not the keeper at the time of the offence. The lady said she could see the vehicle had been transferred but that I would have to apply for a v888 form for detailed information and that can take up to 2-4 weeks and costs 5 pounds.

The car was registered to my previous address and all mail regarding this issue I have not received, the first thing I've had is this notice of further steps so it was all a shock.

I phoned my local magistrates today to make a statutory declaration that I have not received any correspondence in regards to this until now. Any advice would be appreciated. I had to hound the relevant court for more info regarding this fine, they never answer the phone and are barely responding to my emails. They asked for a number to call me and discuss my options but I've had no call. Thanks for taking the time to read this!


Can you provide us with a chronology of events - when did you sell the car, when did you notify the DVLA, when did you move house?
If you check your licence on the DVLA website, you should be able to see the date of the s. 172 offence (endorsement code MS90) - which would enable us to determine when the NIP was sent, and hazard a rough guess as to the date of the original offence.


Sold the car sometime in may I believe, foolishly I did not do a receipt. The v5 was sent off on the same day to the dvla. I'd moved house late last year, probably 6-7 months before.
The court who sent the mail gave me the date the offence occurred, which was on 1/6/19. This was the speeding.
The offence of not identifying is listed as having occurred on 5/7/19.

I'm sorry I dont have more accurate figures than that

Oddly enough, the dvla website simply tells me they cant match my details for the license, which is very worrisome. Could they have cancelled the license?
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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:54
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How were you paid for the car, surely you would have some record of being paid by cheque, bank transfer or deposit of cash into an account?
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Jumpgates
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:57
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:54) *
How were you paid for the car, surely you would have some record of being paid by cheque, bank transfer or deposit of cash into an account?


Cash, it was a small sum that we used for shopping. I bought my new car a week or two before the sale, so it would be mid may for the sale at my best guess. The phone I had text messages from showing the date the guy came to purchase is also bricked so all in all, not great.
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andy_foster
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:58
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Which address is on your licence? My guess is that it is still registered to your previous address and the DVLA website strangely enough did not match it to your current post code.


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Andy

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Jumpgates
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 23:00
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I just checked, looks like we did deposit the remainder of it on the 23rd, and that was a few days after the sale I think.

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:58) *
Which address is on your licence? My guess is that it is still registered to your previous address and the DVLA website strangely enough did not match it to your current post code.



Even using my old post code the details dont come back
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andy_foster
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 23:05
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Whether or not you were the owner, keeper or driver at the time of the speeding offence is probably of far less relevance than you might think. If a requirement to provide information under s. 172 RTA 1988 was lawfully served by being delivered to your last known address, subject to the defence of reasonable practicability, you committed the s. 172 offence when at the expiration of the 28 day period beginning with the date of service you did not provide any information.

Reasonable practicability is held to include the issue of whether or not it would have been reasonably practicable to ensure that the notice reached you - such as updating the address on the V5C when you moved house.


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Logician
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 23:54
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So if the speeding was on 1st June, and you sold the car in mid-May, it was not you driving and you cannot do a deal to avoid the s.172 charge. You have no obvious defence to the charge, so you would have little choice but to plead guilty if you do a stat dec and you are re-charged. So is it worth doing the stat dec.? If you go to court and plead guilty you will get a 33% discount off the fine, so the financial burden will be your net weekly income, plus 10% surcharge, plus £85 costs. Is that more or less than the high £800's you would pay if you just left the sentence as it is? You will get 6 points either way.


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Jumpgates
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 00:34
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 23:54) *
So if the speeding was on 1st June, and you sold the car in mid-May, it was not you driving and you cannot do a deal to avoid the s.172 charge. You have no obvious defence to the charge, so you would have little choice but to plead guilty if you do a stat dec and you are re-charged. So is it worth doing the stat dec.? If you go to court and plead guilty you will get a 33% discount off the fine, so the financial burden will be your net weekly income, plus 10% surcharge, plus £85 costs. Is that more or less than the high £800's you would pay if you just left the sentence as it is? You will get 6 points either way.



Yeah, that's what I thought. No escaping being guilty of the s.172. It would likely be less than the 860, so i'll do the stat dec and plead guilty..
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disgrunt
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 07:38
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I disagree.

You moved roughly around November 2018.
Did you have any arrangements for post that would go to your old address whilst you sorted out all the address changes? Mail forwarding, popping round and asking the new tenants/owners for any post?
You decided to sell the car. You then realised the log book still had the old address but as you were selling there didn’t seem any point updating the address.
You sold the car and informed the DVLA
Unfortunately the new owner was caught speeding before the DVLA / police computers had been fully updated and so a S172 was sent to your old address.
It wasn’t practical to reply as your mail forwarding / collection arrangement had run out by then.
You had nothing to gain from not replying.

Personally, I think this last bit is the most important, you had sold the car and weren’t driving so had nothing to gain. It’s not your fault that the new owner was speeding whilst the authorities were still processing the change of ownership.

6 points and a nasty endorsement code means it’s worth the risk defending this charge in my opinion.

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Jlc
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 07:45
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Indeed, but just to note that a contested trial, if found guilty, carries a potentially large costs bill (guideline £620) and loss of guilty plea discount.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 08:04
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IF the car was sold in May and IF the V5c was sent off promptly then I think a successful defence is possible once the previous keeper has completed his legal obligations I don't believe there is any need then for the 'Whiteside' reasonable diligence to ensure they received the communications.

The key here is what date has been put down with DVLA as the date of change of keeper and what date they received (or processed) the change of keeper details on, the OP will need to call them and find out!


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Colin_S
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 08:14
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QUOTE (Jumpgates @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 23:52) *
Oddly enough, the dvla website simply tells me they cant match my details for the license, which is very worrisome. Could they have cancelled the license?



QUOTE (Jumpgates @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 00:00) *
Even using my old post code the details dont come back


Presumably you have your driving licence to hand and are using the details off of that?

How long have you held a licence and did you have previous points already on it?

A question for the experts - If the OP is a new driver and his licence has been cancelled or he already had sufficient points on his licence to warrant a totting ban, would it still show up but as being cancelled on the DVLA website or would it not show up at all?
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Jumpgates
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 09:26
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 07:45) *
Indeed, but just to note that a contested trial, if found guilty, carries a potentially large costs bill (guideline £620) and loss of guilty plea discount.

Yeah, I definitely cant afford to be adding that onto my costs already if i lost.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 08:04) *
IF the car was sold in May and IF the V5c was sent off promptly then I think a successful defence is possible once the previous keeper has completed his legal obligations I don't believe there is any need then for the 'Whiteside' reasonable diligence to ensure they received the communications.

The key here is what date has been put down with DVLA as the date of change of keeper and what date they received (or processed) the change of keeper details on, the OP will need to call them and find out!


I did this first thing but was told over the phone I had to apply for a form that takes up to 4 weeks to come through the post. The lady on the phone wouldnt reveal any more information aside from the fact that she could "see" it had been transferred.
I could try again but they may say the same thing, which is to apply for something called a v888.

QUOTE (Colin_S @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 08:14) *
QUOTE (Jumpgates @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 23:52) *
Oddly enough, the dvla website simply tells me they cant match my details for the license, which is very worrisome. Could they have cancelled the license?



QUOTE (Jumpgates @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 00:00) *
Even using my old post code the details dont come back


Presumably you have your driving licence to hand and are using the details off of that?

How long have you held a licence and did you have previous points already on it?

A question for the experts - If the OP is a new driver and his licence has been cancelled or he already had sufficient points on his licence to warrant a totting ban, would it still show up but as being cancelled on the DVLA website or would it not show up at all?


Had license for around 5 years and zero previous points.


Also to add, we did go around our old address a few times to collect our mail. We had a problem with the people who moved into our old address as we believed they were trying to use my partners details to order items through Amazon fraudulently (as items were being ordered to the old address without our knowledge), though this couldnt be proven. All the mail we collected obviously did not include any of this correspondence however.
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