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Bus Lane PCN and extra charge fees without the right of defense
suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 17:44
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Hi!

I need your help guys! I hope there is someone who can advise me.

Today I received an enforcement notice that says I have to pay 408£ because I was been charged with traffic offences (being in a bus line).
This happened in July in Manchester while I live in Wolverhampton.

This Notice was a big surprise to me, I didn't know anything from July until today. I made a mistake, I did't update the DVLA address for my car. I called the enforcement agent today and they said that all the documents were sent to the old address. So, because it's my fault, I have to pay.

I'm not too sure about that, in fact I think they are wrong. Where is my right of defence? I really don't know if I went wrong in Manchester. Maybe it's true, maybe not. I don't think the law allows to be convicted without the opportunity to defend yourself. Also, I don't think the law allows them to extra charge me if they didn't inform me about the actions upon me.

There are two different things that are not related to each other. The mistake that I made does not mean I lose my statutory rights.

This whole story is quite difficult for me. I have been living in the UK since 2015 but I do not know much about how laws and institutions work. That is why I greatly appreciate any help I will receive and thank you in advance
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post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 17:44
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stamfordman
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 18:04
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So post the notice. Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

And what are the dates -

date of contravention
date you moved

You have the right to file what we call an out of time statement but the council can oppose this.

You must also update the V5C document with DVLA.
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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 18:35
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Hi!

I was in Manchester at the beginning of July. I received the first document about this contravention today.

I also found out today that I have to update the V5C document. I moved last year.


This is the link for enforcement notice: https://ibb.co/2yWydN5


Thank you!
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Neil B
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 18:56
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You're not going to have much chance with this but it's initially free to try.

Let's see if anything might help.

What country do you come from and how is vehicle registration dealt with there?
Do they have something like a V5 ?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:12
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I have been living in the UK since 2015, I have a car that is registered in the UK, the applicable law is UK law.

The main problem is that I did not know about this contravention and I think it is normal to have been informed.

In my country the issuer of these documents is obliged to make sure that you have been notified. Otherwise, the documents have no significance. I think it's the same here. But I don't know what to do.

I found someone who went through this. Look at this, please https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=5308666

That guy managed to successfully revoke the enforcement notice

Thank you.

This post has been edited by suarez: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:15
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Neil B
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:43
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QUOTE (suarez @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:12) *
I think it is normal to have been informed.


How might they have done that?

All notices will have been served to the address you left on file.

I'll try once more -
In your country of origin -
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 18:56) *
Do they have something like a V5 ?



--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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NewJudge
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:43
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Yes you have the right to be notified. But if you don't tell the authorities where you live what are they supposed to do? They sent paperwork to the only address they had for you. It is a principle in criminal matters (such as speeding) that if it can be proved that papers were posted to the address held by the DVLA they are deemed properly "served". You having moved without telling them does not alter that. I imagine a similar principle applies in decriminalised matters such as this.
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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:57
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:43) *
QUOTE (suarez @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:12) *
I think it is normal to have been informed.


How might they have done that?

All notices will have been served to the address you left on file.

I'll try once more -
In your country of origin -
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 18:56) *
Do they have something like a V5 ?




I don't think so! There is no something like V5.

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Neil B
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:00
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QUOTE (suarez @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 19:57) *
I don't think so! There is no something like V5.


So how would the police, for instance, know who owns a vehicle.

I am trying to help btw!


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:05
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There is a register, just like here. But you're not looking for an address, you're looking for a car owner.
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NewJudge
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:37
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QUOTE (suarez @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:05) *
There is a register, just like here. But you're not looking for an address, you're looking for a car owner.

So, having found the car owner, how do they contact him or her?

You seem to be missing the point that it is your responsibility to notify the DVLA if you change address. If you don't the police or anybody else that needs to contact you in relation to matters involving your car cannot contact you. The local council sent papers to you and as far as they were concerned you did not reply. Do you suggest they employ a private detective to track you down? If not, what else do they do? In fact it doesn't matter what you believe they should do. What they do is proceed without your involvement and the result of that is as you have seen.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:39
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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 21:17
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"So, having found the car owner, how do they contact him or her?"

It is very easy to do this even you are in UK or you are somewhere in Europe.
I'm not saying there is better than here. I am saying it is crucial that the person allegedly involved in a violation of the law to be informed about any actions against him. How? It does not matter. It is a principle.


"You seem to be missing the point that it is your responsibility to notify the DVLA if you change address."

No, not at all! I am responsible for my mistake. But that doesn't mean I'm losing my statutory rights.


I have an example. Let's assume something very serious happened. Do you think I'd be guilty of any crime and that's because I didn't change my car address in the DVLA register?
No, these are two very different things.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 21:21
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You are missing the point - there has to be some punishment for abusing the system otherwise the councils and police could never trace the owner of a car. As it stands, the system allows for a window where you move and when cars change hands. What it doesn't usually allow for is people who fail to fulfil a legal duty to update the car registration for many months or years.

Now in your case the contravention was 2 July 2019 - where was the car registered on that date?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 21:26
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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 21:29
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No, I live in Wolverhampton, but in 2018 I changed my home. The contravention was in 02 July 2019 in Manchester. Today I received the first document about this.

I have not changed the address of my car in the DVLA register. Only the driving licence as soon as I moved.

This post has been edited by suarez: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 21:53
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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 21:44
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"You are missing the point - there has to be some punishment for abusing the system otherwise the councils and police could never trace the owner of a car."


I totally agree with you. And the punishment is provided in the law that requires the change of address of the car.

I would like to thank anyone who has tried or will try to help me. The next few days I will be at work, only the next Monday I will be free. In the coming days I will be able to enter here only after 7.30 pm
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Neil B
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:02
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What we're trying to tell you is that if you put forward such opinions in an OOT application, on a PE2, you
are going to fail.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:19
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+1
I can see this ending badly.

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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:22
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:02) *
What we're trying to tell you is that if you put forward such opinions in an OOT application, on a PE2, you
are going to fail.


I don't know anything about OOT or PE2 or something else. Believe me, I don't even know the most basic thing about what I have to do. That's why I'm here and I ask for your advice.
Above I said what I think. I should have had the opportunity of defence or to pay the basic fee.
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NewJudge
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:32
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QUOTE (suarez @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 21:17) *
No, not at all! I am responsible for my mistake. But that doesn't mean I'm losing my statutory rights.


I have an example. Let's assume something very serious happened. Do you think I'd be guilty of any crime and that's because I didn't change my car address in the DVLA register?
No, these are two very different things.


Let's stick to the law, then. In many minor motoring matters the law provides for papers to be sent - by either the police or the local authority - to the address where your vehicle was last registered. Whether you are there or not, the papers are deemed properly served on you provided it can be proved that they were posted. If, following that, you fail to engage with the process that follows for whatever reason then whoever is taking the action against you is entitled to see that action through without your involvement. The alternative would be that vehicle owners simply have to deny knowledge of receiving any papers and no action could be completed against them until they are traced and informed - clearly ridiculous.

I have asked you how you suggest the authorities are to proceed if either you ignore their action or do not receive notification of it. You suggest that it does not matter. You are correct in as much as it does not matter, but not for the reason you suggest. It does not matter because legislation allows for the action to proceed without your involvement. Your analogy of being accused of "something serious" because you did not change your car's registration details with the DVLA is not appropriate. You would need to be traced and interviewed in connection with a serious matter. You do not have to be traced and interviewed to establish whether your vehicle contravened bus lane regulations. That's how it works in the UK. If you believe your "statutory rights" are being jeopardised by such a situation you need to lobby Parliament because it is Parliament that has provided the legislation and the framework.

With a criminal conviction you do have an opportunity to have a conviction of what you were not aware set aside. I'm not so sure about decriminalised matters such as bus lane infringements as it is not my area. However, others have told you the answer. But my concern is that you believe that no action can be taken against you unless you are informed. That belief is unfounded as countless threads on here - particularly with speeding matters - will confirm.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:37
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suarez
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:52
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 22:32) *
QUOTE (suarez @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 21:17) *
No, not at all! I am responsible for my mistake. But that doesn't mean I'm losing my statutory rights.


I have an example. Let's assume something very serious happened. Do you think I'd be guilty of any crime and that's because I didn't change my car address in the DVLA register?
No, these are two very different things.


Let's stick to the law, then. In many minor motoring matters the law provides for papers to be sent - by either the police or the local authority - to the address where your vehicle was last registered. Whether you are there or not, the papers are deemed properly served on you provided it can be proved that they were posted. If, following that, you fail to engage with the process that follows for whatever reason then whoever is taking the action against you is entitled to see that action through without your involvement. The alternative would be that vehicle owners simply have to deny knowledge of receiving any papers and no action could be completed against them until they are traced and informed - clearly ridiculous.

I have asked you how you suggest the authorities are to proceed if either you ignore their action or do not receive notification of it. You suggest that it does not matter. You are correct in as much as it does not matter, but not for the reason you suggest. It does not matter because legislation allows for the action to proceed without your involvement. Your analogy of being accused of "something serious" because you did not change your car's registration details with the DVLA is not appropriate. You would need to be traced and interviewed in connection with a serious matter. You do not have to be traced and interviewed to establish whether your vehicle contravened bus lane regulations. That's how it works in the UK. If you believe your "statutory rights" are being jeopardised by such a situation you need to lobby Parliament because it is Parliament that has provided the legislation and the framework.

With a criminal conviction you do have an opportunity to have a conviction of what you were not aware set aside. I'm not so sure about decriminalised matters such as bus lane infringements as it is not my area. However, others have told you the answer. But my concern is that you believe that no action can be taken against you unless you are informed. That belief is unfounded as countless threads on here - particularly with speeding matters - will confirm.




I am sorry but I did not say anything like this. I said I should have had the opportunity of defence or to pay the basic fee. Did I have this? No. Are you sure the Council has complied with the law? You can't be! Did they prove this? No, they didn't! Why they didn't ask for 9000 pounds? Are you sure 408 pounds is the right amount? No, you can't be!

It cannot be enough to receive a letter and that letter decides that you are guilty. And the judge is the same that gets the money.
I received nothing until today, no PCN, no other document, just a letter saying I owe 408 pounds and it must be paid immediately.

This post has been edited by suarez: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 23:07
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