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PCN LB ISLINGTON Sussex Way Pedestrian Zone (School) 53J, Threads merged x3
Tony London
post Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 16:16
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I received this PCN from LB Islington and even after looking at the online video, couldn't see where there was evidence to showing the contravebntion for "53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehiles entering a pedestrian zone". The photos and video simply show my vechicle indicating and turning left into Sussex Way from Tollington Way.

Having looked up the location on Google Maps, I recalled the junction and later drove there to see what the PCN was about. As I drove up Tollington Park towards the junction, I noticed and recalled a yellow sign stating "Sussex Way CLOSED MON-Fri 8.30am-9.10am 3.15pm-4pm left arrow". I recalled seeing that on the day and looked into the road to see if it was Closed, which it did not appear to be and so I proceeded into the road on the lock out for a closed road.

Ive noticed other part time Pedestrian Zones in Camden, in these cases the road is marked with a no vehicle sign on the side road with the times and showing the alternate route being to proceed straight ahead. I noted that there are additional signs for the Pedestrian Zone, but as there are so many details it is difficult to take in all of the information.


1. Is there not a requirement for an alleged contravention to show the relevant sign and the vehicle committing the contravention ? As far as I can see from the evidence provided, no contravention has occured.

2. The advanced warming sign does not convey the restriction of a Pedestrian zone, and as this is a road where traffic would regulary use, there should be a sign that indicates the pedestrian zone and the alternate route surely ?

3. I am a blue badge holder, but as I understand it expemption only applies for those needing access and where this has been done in advance. This of course does not allow for a disabled visitor going to visit someone or needing access into the school itself. I also do not understand why most of the adjacnent side streets are also part of the Pedestrian Zone.


Thanks for taking the time to look into this and any information you can provide will be useful.

This post has been edited by Tony London: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 16:04
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post Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 16:16
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stamfordman
post Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 16:52
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this is one of Islington's school street schemes. In moving traffic contraventions the authority only has to show that the sign is in place. In these school streets some cases have been won because drivers can't be expected to take in the times when committing themselves to a turn if not forwaraned and Islington has added advance signage in at least one location I know.

But you should be driving no faster than 20mph of course.

Post the video.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.
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cp8759
post Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 18:14
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So here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5629187,-...33;8i8192?hl=en

The restrictions are new and do not appear on google street view. If there are no advance warning signs on Tollington Way there is a fair chance that you could win on the basis that the signage is inadequate. However in the first instance post up the video.

Unfortunately as street view is not up to date, you'll have to go back and get photos of the signs.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Tony London
post Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 21:05
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Islington haven't shown on the PCN or the video a sign being in place for a time restriected Pedestrian Zone. They have simply shown photos of my car turning left from Tollington Park into Sussex Way. Had they taken photo and videos from Tollington Park, there would be less doubt about the contravention and the signs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBbMSi3wATE...eature=youtu.be

I will upload more photos but having problems as it keeps saying I didn't select any files to upload, after its reached 100%.


Thanks

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hcandersen
post Mon, 2 Dec 2019 - 08:11
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The OP acknowledges:

Sussex Way CLOSED MON-Fri 8.30am-9.10am 3.15pm-4pm left arrow". I recalled seeing that on the day and looked into the road to see if it was Closed, which it did not appear to be and so I proceeded into the road on the lock out for a closed road.

This was posted following them revisiting.

The OP will need to take photos because the wording is not consistent with any sign in the regs, so let's see what is actually present.

OP, IMO your only mileage as regards their evidence within the PCN is if they produce the signs in any NOR and do not re-offer the discount.
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cp8759
post Mon, 2 Dec 2019 - 14:25
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QUOTE (Tony London @ Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 21:05) *
I will upload more photos but having problems as it keeps saying I didn't select any files to upload, after its reached 100%.

Use an external site like imgur.com as there won't be space on here.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Tony London
post Mon, 2 Dec 2019 - 23:36
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These are photos of the yellow advanced warning of Susses Way closures, the road just before making the left turn and the signs at the junction when entering and leaving.

https://imgur.com/a/Q9armwG?s=sms


The yellow signs seem to be an odd choice, when LB Camden use the following sign which are clear and provide the information in a single glance.

https://imgur.com/a/TDw31Rf?s=sms


I also noticed that there are not signs stating that CCTV monitoring is being carried out by LB Islington. Appreciate that this might not cancel a PCN, but it may be an avenue to recover money for the data protection breach.



Thanks
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Tony London
post Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 00:10
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 2 Dec 2019 - 08:11) *
OP, IMO your only mileage as regards their evidence within the PCN is if they produce the signs in any NOR and do not re-offer the discount.



Thanks, I will consider this as an option. Though it seems unjust for them to get a 2nd chance to provide key missing information and then I'm only able to do so if they neglect to give me the discounted rate.

I was intending to reply that the contravention did not occur on the face of the evidence that is shown in the photos and the video they provided for me to view. Further the sign on Tollington Park simply indicates a Road Closure on Sussex Way on the left, which assumes that I know I was entering Sussex Way and as Road Closure signs are often in place when a road is not closed, I entered the road as the road was obvoulsy not closed.

I'll wait for feedback on the signs as I couldn't find out whichh signs were needed after lookimg at chapter 3 of TSRGD


Thanks
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cp8759
post Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 17:03
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This advance warning sign is going to be a problem: https://imgur.com/a/TDw31Rf?s=sms

The council is not required to provide incontrovertible proof with the PCN, because the discount is offered as a settlement opportunity for those who don't take issue with the council's allegation. Of course, you can put the council to proof by requiring it to prove its case at the tribunal, but at that point the discount is lost. If the council supplies all the necessary evidence at that stage (photos of the signs, TMO and so on) you would have no viable grounds of appeal as far as I can see.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Tony London
post Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 22:41
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This is the advanced sign LB Islington have before the turning into Sussex Way.
https://imgur.com/a/Q9armwG?s=sms

I’d expect this type of sign to be used, which is used by LB Camden.
https://imgur.com/a/TDw31Rf?s=sms ( example sign not the one used)

I will lodge my representation on the basis of what happened, which is down to the unclear sign, the flow of traffic along Tollington Park, and the fact there are several signs to take in as you turn into the road. That yellow sign says Sussex Road, so I’d have to know that was Sussex Road, which I didn’t know.

Camden cancelled a ticket because the PCN did not clearly show a no left turn sign. I find it difficult that anyone can be accused of a contravention and there is nothing in the evidence that has the critical pedestrian zone sign, even a standard pic of it taken after installation.

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cp8759
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 00:34
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Ok that makes a lot more sense now. There's previous decisions we can quote that indicate advance warning signs must not be textual. Post a draft of your representation on here before sending it to the council.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Tony London
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 11:20
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 00:34) *
Ok that makes a lot more sense now. There's previous decisions we can quote that indicate advance warning signs must not be textual. Post a draft of your representation on here before sending it to the council.



That would make a lot of sense, something local authorities seem to be lacking. I've noticed that Islington have these Road Closure signs on a lot of their streets near Pedestrian Zones.


I am explainng to Islington exactly what happened as I drove along these streets. I wasn't sure if I should mention the sign that I would have expected which would instantly have conveyed to me the Pedestrian Zone operation in the street ahead.


Thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated.


Flat 17
5 Stapleton Hall Road
London N43QQ

Dear Sirs,
I wish to lodge an appeal to the above PCN, alleging a 53J Pedestrian Zone contravention. After reviewing the photos and the video provided, I cannot see any signs in the evidence that indicates I had turned into a Pedestrian Zone.

At the time my vehicle turned into this road, I had driven up Tollington Park. This is a busy road to and from Holloway Road, where two way traffic has to proceed mostly in single file from point to point and pass each other where there aren’t parked cars.

There was a yellow warning sign indicating Sussex Way closures on the left, but as I don’t know the side road names it wasn’t apparent which exact road this hazard warning sign was for. As I approached the road with oncoming waiting vehicles, I decided to try the next road on the left if it wasn’t closed. As it was not closed, I turned into the road.

As you can see from the video, there is a white van oncoming that has to wait at the point I turn into the road. There are vehicles following me that are seen passing quickly after I make the turn, to allow the oncoming vehicles to pass. There is little time to look at all the possibilities and if asalleged, I turned into a Pedestrian Zone, it is because I was expecting a road closure hazard and not a Pedestrian Zone from the earlier yellow hazard warning signs in Tollington Park.
I’ve noted from various Pedestrian Zone schemes, they usually have a sign that indicates vehicles prohibition prior to the turning with a times and showing the alternative route. As these side roads are normally used, I’d expect this type of sign to be used as defined in chapter 3 of TSRGD.

As I am a Blue badge holder and my vehicle is road tax exempt, I would assume in most cases exemption would apply to allow disabled people access.
I trust the council can use their discretion to cancel this PCN, as I was mislead by the yellow hazard warning sign. I’ve taken the time to look at the scheme and will now be mindful of the Pedestrian Zones along certain side streets in that area.

Kind regards,


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Tony London
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 20:45
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http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t128026.html


I've just read a related post involving LB Islington, where they noticed the the penalty charge notice was defective. It stated that the 28 day period in which to pay the full amount and the 14 day period for paying the reduced amount are "from the date of the notice" (this should be the date the notice is posted). They should state "from the date on which the notice was served".

As the date of the noticed is Wed 20th Nov 2019, the 14 and 28 day deadline accourding to the Islington PCN would be Tue 3rd Dec 2019 and Tue 17th Nov 2019 . However, as the date of service is legally deemed to be 2 days later, the actual deadlines should be Thursday 5th Dec and 19th Dec 2019 respectively.

I assume that it is worth mentioning this in the Representation letter, as I am not sure if this means the PCN is inavalidated by the error, or if they are simply allowed to send a corrected PCN.


Judging by Islington payment system, it appears the discount is still valid. So it shoud be held at the current rate until they respond.
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Tony London
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 23:58
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I found the ETO for Islingtons Sussex Way Pedestrian Zone scheme, whilst reading another thread.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6hetrt06a2s7so/5...PR%29.docx?dl=0



They also posted the consultation documents that Islington had on this scheme. https://www.islington.gov.uk/~/media/sharepoint-lists/public-records/transportandinfrastructure/publicity/publicconsultation/20182019/20181105islingtonconsultationdocumentstmarkscofeprimary.pdf, where they are defined as "school streets"...
and this document https://www.islington.gov.uk/energy-and-pollution/pollution/air-quality/air-quality-projects/st-marks-primary-school where they are defined as "temporary road closure".

(They do speak of advanced warning signs, which probably explain why they have the yellow road closure sign on Tollington Way)











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Tony London
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 07:48
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 00:34) *
Ok that makes a lot more sense now. There's previous decisions we can quote that indicate advance warning signs must not be textual. Post a draft of your representation on here before sending it to the council.


As there are no quoted decisions forthcoming, I will state that I understand that there have been adjudicator decisions that indicate advanced warning signs must not be textual and explain this by showing textual sign LB Islington use in comparison to the pictorial sign that LB Camden use.


Thanks

This post has been edited by Tony London: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 19:49
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Tony London
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 17:49
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I have a PCN in Islington for entering a Pedestrian Zone on a left turn from a major road, which the council had installed a yellow warning sign with text that states Sussex Way Road Closure times.

I had a response from someone in this forum to say that they could quote some decisions where they stated that Advanced warning signs must not be Textual.

Unfortunately, there has been no further responses to that thread and I have until today to get my appeal in before the discount deadline expires. So I would appreciate if anyone else can quote the decisions.



Thanks
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Tony London
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 18:40
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I have a moving traffic PCN from Islington and understand from looking at the PCN Flaws database http://bit.ly/2ALghSS, that Islingtons Moving traffic PCN mis-states charge certificate & representations periods (from date of notice rather than date of service).


I had a look at the London Local Auithorities and Transport for London Act 2003, but this seems to state "from date of notice". Can anyone explain what the legislation for this is ? Islington seem to have a standard reply that they believe the PCN wording is correct and I expect this is to get you to not risk taking the matter to the Adjudicator.


Thanks



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Neil B
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 18:50
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You PCN looks correct.

But most importantly, you need to post only in your original thread, not keep starting new ones.

And re one of your other duplicate threads, your discount period expired two days ago, not today.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Tony London
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 19:40
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 18:50) *
You PCN looks correct.

But most importantly, you need to post only in your original thread, not keep starting new ones.

And re one of your other duplicate threads, your discount period expired two days ago, not today.


Thanks for your reply, unfortunately I was no longer getting any response from that thread and needed to get an answer to submit my informal representation by midnight today. I checked the Islington Pay website which still shows the discounted charge of £65 today, so it follows that the correct wording should be "from the date of service". However, if it does not changed tomorrow it may well be down to a glitch or Islington allowig extra days.


The user CP8759 in thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=128026, Post #2, stated that a 53J PCN issued by LB Islington (exectly the same as mine) in May has a flaw.... as follows:-

The PCN mis-states the period you have to pay or challenge the PCN, as they incorrectly state they can increase the charge by 50% after the end of 28 days from the date of the notice, it should be 28 days from the date of service of the notice. As the notice was issued on a Friday, they're actually cutting short the relevant period by a total of 4 days (because service is 2 working days after issue to Saturday and Sunday don't count).



I appreciate your time in respondinh, but I am confused as to how my LB Islington 53J PCN of Nov 2019 is correct and the discount deadline expired 2 days ago, when that LB Islington 53J in May 2019 PCN was deemed to be defective and has been listed as such on this websites PCN Flaws database.

As I understand, the differnce in the wording is to due to moving traffic contraventions being issued by post, so there is a delay of several days between the time the PCN is issued and it being received.


Thanks and sorry for creating a new thread.

This post has been edited by Tony London: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 19:42
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Neil B
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 13:42
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QUOTE (Tony London @ Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 19:40) *
they incorrectly state they can increase the charge by 50% after the end of 28 days from the date of the notice,

Where does your PCN say that?

It doesn't and neither did the PCN in the linked case.

Soz I can't be more helpful.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 13:46


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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