PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN Tamside Council, Parked for longer than permitted
Daz Clayton
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 21:58
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



Hi Guys
having a hard time with a jobsworth at tameside council, on the 02/10/2019 i parked my van in a 1 hour space with no return. left well within the hour and parked back up in a different bay on the street later on, then came out to a parking ticket.
on the 08/10/2018 I Emailed their parking team asking for the photos and a copy of the TRO for the street

I am in receipt of a Parking Ticket for one of our vehicles parked in Hyde Gtr Manchester on the 2/10/2019.
Could you please supply us photographic evidence, also a copy of the traffic regulations for that street as we were loading at the time and wish to see if we have contravened any regulations.
Many thanks,

only to be met by some mini Hitler who thought it was an appeal, even though i only asked for information,
anyway they submitted 2 photographs in EMZ format in the lowest quality imaginable, and no copy of the TRO, and said they have taken into consideration my appeal but it had been denied and said to wait for the NTO.
Received NTO 05/11/2019 again with no proof of the contravention as i thought i might at least get some photographs.
i emailed them back on 15/11/2019 saying

I note your explanation of the supposed contravention but i asked for all photographic evidence and a copy of the TRO, Traffic regulation order in order to submit our representations and appeal the ticket, instead you have forwarded 2 photographs which are unreadable and not in a known format so cannot be scrutinized, also a copy of the TRO for corporation street, hyde has not been sent, in order for us to give full representations to contest the ticket we require all photographic evidence and the TRO as requested, please also confirm that when all photographic evidence is supplied that it is all the photo's you have of the contravention as photos that haven't been submitted when requested cannot be used later to contest our appeal. Please can you put my appeal on hold to give enough time for you to provide what we have asked for and time for us to scrutinize the evidence given for an appeal. I then get an email back yesterday with this response I refer to your recent correspondence in conjunction with the above Penalty Charge Notice. I note this is the second challenge you have made prior to the Notice to Owner being sent out to yourself. After careful consideration of the facts that you presented on your original letter the decision made by the Council was to uphold the PCN.

If you wish to appeal that decision again you will need to wait for the Notice to Owner which is issued /served to the registered keeper.

Please refer to the rejection of challenge letter sent to you for further details.

Regards Parking Services




They obviously a very evasive at giving out any sort of evidence that can be contested, you can clearly see they don't want hand it over and instead want me write my appeal by quail and ink and send back by carrier pigeon in the hope i don't bother and cough up the funds for for the diabolic reasons of loading and unloading my van.

anyone have any ideas what my next move should be as obviously they don't want to cough up the evidence I've asked for and would prefer it if i waited for my appeal to timeout.




cheers







Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 21:58
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 22:07
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,697
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



So lets get back on track. Loading, likely to be an exemption but it is for you to prove your were not the council to prove you were not so

post up the PCN your first letter in full their response in full your second letter in full The NTO and the photographs. Also a GSV so we can have a look round


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 22:13
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,442
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Put pics of docs etc on https://imgbb.com or such like.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:01
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,339
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Treating a request for information as a representation or vice-versa can be a procedural impropriety, post up all the documents so we can take a look. The council's policy on unloading says this:

Loading/Unloading
To be entitled to the loading exemption a motorist must demonstrate that the vehicle was parked
only for so long as was necessary to load goods, which by reason of their size, volume or weight
could not reasonably be transported. The act of actually purchasing the goods is not included in
the act of loading. Goods may be moved from the shop to the vehicle but they should be
purchased first and made ready for immediate collection. A receipt, delivery note or invoice must
be provided to claim this exemption. On occasions there may be a valid reason why the vehicle
has parked in contravention but the motorist cannot provide evidence. The Council will always
review each case on its own merit and take a reasonable and proportionate approach, taking into
account individual circumstances.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daz Clayton
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:31
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



Thanks guys

I'll post up the PCN tomorrow as its not here with me at the moment, but the rest i can do

emails


RE PCN Notice TMO******

I am in receipt of a Parking Ticket for one of our vehicles parked in Hyde Gtr Manchester on the 02/10/2019.

Could you please supply us photographic evidence, also a copy of the traffic regulations for that street as we were loading at the time and wish to see if we have contravened any regulations.

Many thanks,

Response

Dear Mr Clayton,



Re: Notice of rejection of “challenge” – Traffic Management Act 2004

PCN No : TM0*******

Date Issued : 02/10/2019 12:10:10

Location of Contravention : CORPORATION STREET, HYDE



Thank you for writing to us.



We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).



There is a sign where you parked which explains that, although parking is free in that bay, you can only park for a certain length of time. Your vehicle was parked for a time exceeding the maximum period of 1 hour no return within 1 hour in the restricted parking area. Signs clearly showing the time restrictions were displayed. You were issued a PCN for parking for longer than this. This rule applies to all users of the bay.



You have these choices:

You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.



Yours sincerely

Parking Services





(these were in an EMZ format, only a very strange person would put photographs in that format, looks like its been taken on potato cam.)

My response

Dear Parking services

Thank you for your email,

I note your explanation of the supposed contravention but i asked for all photographic evidence and a copy of the TRO, Traffic regulation order in order to submit our representations and appeal the ticket, instead you have forwarded 2 photographs which are unreadable and not in a known format so cannot be scrutinized, also a copy of the TRO for corporation street, hyde has not been sent, in order for us to give full representations to contest the ticket we require all photographic evidence and the TRO as requested, please also confirm that when all photographic evidence is supplied that it is all the photo's you have of the contravention as photos that haven't been submitted when requested cannot be used later to contest our appeal.

Please can you put my appeal on hold to give enough time for you to provide what we have asked for and time for us to scrutinize the evidence given for an appeal.

Kind Regards

Mr Clayton

Their Response



Dear Sir/Madam,







Re: Notice of rejection of “challenge” – Traffic Management Act 2004

PCN No: TM0*******

Date Issued: 02/10/2019 12:10:10

Location of Contravention : CORPORATION STREET, HYDE





I refer to your recent correspondence in conjunction with the above Penalty Charge Notice. I note this is the second challenge you have made prior to the Notice to Owner being sent out to yourself.



After careful consideration of the facts that you presented on your original letter the decision made by the Council was to uphold the PCN.



If you wish to appeal that decision again you will need to wait for the Notice to Owner which is issued /served to the registered keeper.



Please refer to the rejection of challenge letter sent to you for further details.







Yours sincerely







Parking Services

GSV location

https://goo.gl/maps/nG7NCvqZGNj3jMMJA

i was parked where the grey golf is. then i moved over to the other side before my hour was up.

NTO











This post has been edited by Daz Clayton: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:50
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:42
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,697
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



When you say other side I presume you mean other end of the loading bay?

Theres at least one page of the NTO missing


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daz Clayton
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:45
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:42) *
When you say other side I presume you mean other end of the loading bay?

Theres at least one page of the NTO missing


Correct on the other side of the loading bay.

also i've added the last page of the NTO

This post has been edited by Daz Clayton: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:46
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:46
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,697
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Daz Clayton @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:45) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:42) *
When you say other side I presume you mean other end of the loading bay?

Theres at least one page of the NTO missing


Correct on the other side of the loading bay.


Not the same bay then this should be easy


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daz Clayton
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:54
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



can i request better photographs thou as i can't see the date and time stamps on theirs
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 01:07
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,339
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



There's no reason why you can't contact the council and ask for full resolution copies of all the photos.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 01:07


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daz Clayton
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 17:23
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



ok, had a look for the original ticket and it seems to have been misplaced, so whats the next step?

Cheers
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 18:50
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,697
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Daz Clayton @ Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 17:23) *
ok, had a look for the original ticket and it seems to have been misplaced, so whats the next step?

Cheers



Representations against the NTO draft something and post here and we will tidy it up


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daz Clayton
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 23:07
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



Wouldn’t even know where to start lol

I parked where the photo was taken well within the permitted hour and moved just before my time was up and then moved to the next bay on the other side of the loading bay as we were loading heavy equipment into the theatre opposite. which also had an hours parking which is when I got the ticket while we were inside loading boxes of equipment.

The theatre owner has said he will confirm this is correct as he witnessed me move the van well within the time as it was him that told me to do it as they are notorious for tickets in that particular area.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 23:13
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,697
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



OK I'll draft something. Get a statement re the loading


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daz Clayton
post Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 00:38
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



Ok will do matey

Thanks for your help, appreciate it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 12:48
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,448
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



OP, can I clarify a couple of points:

The photos supplied are NOT of the location where the contravention occurred - you describe thus 'which also had an hours parking which is where I got the ticket'. So you say the photo is of location 1, whereas the contravention occurred in location 2 after you had moved. I also presume that the photo does not show a PCN on your screen - how could it if it was location 1? But if the photo shows service and/is of location 2, then this is inconsistent with you last comment.

Also,

i parked my van in a 1 hour space with no return. left well within the hour and parked back up in a different bay on the street later on..
..which IMO implies that you left the street and returned 'later on'..

is not quite the same as..

I parked where the photo was taken well within the permitted hour and moved just before my time was up and then moved to the next bay on the other side of the loading bay as we were loading heavy equipment into the theatre opposite. which also had an hours parking which is when I got the ticket while we were inside loading boxes of equipment.


So you had a job - which can be evidenced- which required you to deliver **** to ***** (delivering/unloading are the same for these purposes, I just prefer the more applicable). You anticipated that this would take more than 1 hour and so you parked in two bays in the street because you were not certain that delivering was an exemption from the restriction (if you had been, then why move?). You parked in the first bay to the **** of the loading bay, as can be seen in the photo and then moved directly to the *** side of the loading bay to continue and complete your delivery.

Or did you actually leave the street? Perhaps because you'd emptied your load but had to reload and return in order to complete the work?

I think we should know the what and why before we get embroiled in your theme of photos and procedural improprieties, and certainly before any reps against the NTO are made.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daz Clayton
post Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 19:57
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



hi hcanderson,

yeah it does sound very confusing, i think i'm just rushing and not thinking straight about details. it didn't help the google maps street view throwing me off when i was looking at it to explain where i was parked, as i thought the car in the space i started out in was a silver golf, it wasn't a golf it was another silver car so sorry for the confusion there.

I started out on other side which i'm still trying to get photos of, i now have the high res photos of the contravention, as you can see photos were taken when the ticket was added, i have responded back to ask for photos before 12.10pm to see where the vehicle was parked and what the observation period by the warden was to prove that we were 1 hour over the time permitted?

thanks

















Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 22:37
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,448
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



This is not the way the procedure works.

If you believe that a contravention did not occur, then make reps to this effect. They are not under any obligation to keep responding to your requests without making reps. And if you do not make reps within the 28-day period, then they may serve a Charge Certificate increasing the penalty by 50% and cutting off your access to adjudication.



So we now know you moved.

The first location is, from your perspective, a complete distraction. You started this hare running, so....BANG, it's gone unless or until the authority might bring it back into the frame.

So while we have a day or two, will you please tell is what you were doing, why, how it occurred and why. We need to know. You should set a context in your reps.

As it stands, all they've indicated is that you were parked in the location bay for more than the permitted period. So, either compelling evidence that you were not or that in any event you were engaged in an exempt activity would bring this to a close.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daz Clayton
post Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 02:42
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 1 Feb 2011
Member No.: 43,922



Ok

We turned up to load into the theatre, we had a van full of gear to transfer and unbox for the client, we were back and two to the van approx every 15 mins until we finished loading the first lot, we then left and returned with another load parked for around 15 mins in the loading bay in front but because we thought we were still within the 1 hour of the no return window of the first bay not remembering what time we parked we played it safe and didn’t park back in the original bay so went into the loading bay, because we had to unload then unbox the equipment we would’t be able to leave the van in the loading bay without someone staying with it to show we were unloading, and we’d need a good 30 mins unbox everything inside the theatre, I mentioned this to the owner of the theatre and he told us to park in the other bay as it gave us another hour grace to do what we needed to get done. At no point was any ticket affixed to the van before our minouvers and it was only when we had finished well within the permitted 1 hour time limit we saw the ticket, the owner of the theatre even oversaw what we were doing and said he would vouch if need be as it’s happened before with himself when swapping bays and his had been overturned as the 2 bays allow for 1 hour each.

Hope this makes sense
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 10:16
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,697
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Daz Clayton @ Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 02:42) *
Ok

We turned up to load into the theatre, we had a van full of gear to transfer and unbox for the client, we were back and two to the van approx every 15 mins until we finished loading the first lot, we then left and returned with another load parked for around 15 mins in the loading bay in front but because we thought we were still within the 1 hour of the no return window of the first bay not remembering what time we parked we played it safe and didn’t park back in the original bay so went into the loading bay, because we had to unload then unbox the equipment we would’t be able to leave the van in the loading bay without someone staying with it to show we were unloading, and we’d need a good 30 mins unbox everything inside the theatre, I mentioned this to the owner of the theatre and he told us to park in the other bay as it gave us another hour grace to do what we needed to get done. At no point was any ticket affixed to the van before our minouvers and it was only when we had finished well within the permitted 1 hour time limit we saw the ticket, the owner of the theatre even oversaw what we were doing and said he would vouch if need be as it’s happened before with himself when swapping bays and his had been overturned as the 2 bays allow for 1 hour each.

Hope this makes sense


Does to me, will draft something over the weekend


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Sunday, 15th December 2019 - 04:34
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.