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Order for Recovery of Unpaid PCN, PCN via TEC time limit
TheTigers
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 17:57
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On 15-Nov-2019 we received an Order for Recovery of Unpaid PCN from London Borough of Harrow that relates to an offence that took place on 30-Jan-2017 (based on CCTV evidence so no PCN manually served) - this is almost 3 years ago.

We received none of the PCN correspondance that was alegedly sent to us by the local authority concerned - so this is the first notification we have had with regard to the offence.

Please can you advise me whether this summonse via TEC in Northampton County Court has any legal standing since the event was almost 3 years ago - i.e. the Local Authority is out of time.

Many thanks for your advice.
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post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 17:57
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stamfordman
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:02
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Are you the registered keeper. If so go check the address on the V5C and if correct check when it was changed to that address. In any case if you didn't get the PCN you can make a declaration that will cancel the debt recovery process and the letter you have should tell you how.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:05
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:15
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Post the document dates are important


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TheTigers
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:16
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The V5C has the correct address - and we didn’t get the correspondence that should have been sent – and I know we can file a defence based upon this very fact.

However, my question was "is there a time limit on the length time that London Borough of Harrow has allowed to elapse between the alleged offence and serving the order for recovery"? In other words – does the TEC summons have any legal basis as London Borough of Harrow are out of time.
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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:20
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QUOTE (TheTigers @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 17:57) *
an offence

Of what?

QUOTE (TheTigers @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:16) *
my question was "is there a time limit on the length time that London Borough of Harrow has allowed to elapse between the alleged offence and serving the order for recovery"? In other words – does the TEC summons have any legal basis as London Borough of Harrow are out of time.

Which isn't immediately relevant but we'll address later.
For now we concentrate on maintaining your safety.

What do you propose anyway --- ignoring it?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TheTigers
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:21
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Date of offence: 19-Jan-2017 @ 21:25
Date of this Notice: 30-Jan-2017 (from copy of PCN sent with the Order for Recovery)
Date of Contravention: 19-Jan-2017 (Order for Recovery)
Date of this Notice: 13-Nov-2019 (Order for Recovery)
Date of Service of this Notice: 18-Nov-2019 (Order for Recovery)

Contravention was 33B: "Using a route restricted to certain vehicles bisses only"

Please let me know if you need any other dates

This post has been edited by TheTigers: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:31
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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:28
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That's a mess for a start but, as said -
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:15) *
Post the document

We need to SEE it.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TheTigers
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:46
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Here is the copy of the Penalty Charge Notice they sent with the Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charges.

Anything else you would like to see?

Attached File(s)
Attached File  Penalty_Charge_Notice.pdf ( 96.54K ) Number of downloads: 24
Attached File  Order_for_Recovery_of_Unpaid_Penalty_Charges.pdf ( 125.49K ) Number of downloads: 23
 
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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:05
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So make the statutory Declaration on the enclosed form and come back when you hear from TEC.

DO NOT complicate it by writing anything in the 'reasons' box.

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QUOTE (TheTigers @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:46) *
Here is the copy of the Penalty Charge Notice they sent with the Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charges.

Sch1 7(9) applies.
This is the new PCN


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TheTigers
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:13
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What do you mean by "Sch1 7(9) applies - This is the new PCN"?

I am not a solicitor hence I dont undertand the terminology used.
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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:22
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QUOTE (TheTigers @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:13) *
What do you mean by "Sch1 7(9) applies - This is the new PCN"?

When TEC revoke the OfR Harrow normally have the option of cancelling everything or issuing a new PCN.

Here, unusually, they've pre-empted that by enclosing a copy, which counts as a new PCN and is deemed served on
the day your Stat Dec reaches TEC.

I doubt they even know this themselves and, potentially, they are likely to cock something up.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:23
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So when the TEC revoke the charge certificate and the order for recovery they do note revoke the PCN. As the council sent a copy with the OfR that copy is then deemed served on you on the date of service of the statutory declaration.

The date I am interested in is the date of the CC, your best bet is that there is an unfair time between that and the OfR

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:37


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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:33
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:23) *
deemed served on you on the date of revocation of the OfR.

I would have thought so, makes sense but no, date SD is served.

Lots of opportunity for Harrow to fall over their own feet here.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:36
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:33) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:23) *
deemed served on you on the date of revocation of the OfR.

I would have thought so, makes sense but no, date SD is served.

Lots of opportunity for Harrow to fall over their own feet here.


The draughtsman of the 2003 regs must have been on something weird I will edit the post to reflect


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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:43
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:36) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:33) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:23) *
deemed served on you on the date of revocation of the OfR.

I would have thought so, makes sense but no, date SD is served.

Lots of opportunity for Harrow to fall over their own feet here.


The draughtsman of the 2003 regs must have been on something weird I will edit the post to reflect

Maybe there's been an amendment.
It's terribly unfair on anyone filing SD towards the end of 21 days.

QUOTE (TheTigers @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 18:46) *
Here is the copy of the Penalty Charge Notice they sent with the Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charges.

Just that single side or were there more pages?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:54
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:22) *
Here, unusually, they've pre-empted that by enclosing a copy, which counts as a new PCN


Question - the OfR is issued by TEC, not Harrow, so Harrow must have sent them the PCN copy? And TEC is obliged to include it?
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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:56
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:54) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 19:22) *
Here, unusually, they've pre-empted that by enclosing a copy, which counts as a new PCN


Question - the OfR is issued by TEC,

No, it's not.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 20:38
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All TEC do is register the debt, advise the enforcement authority who can then issue the Order for Recovery.

If your V5C has had the same address since the original PCN, then something is seriously wrong, and one has to suspect, (assuming it is a postal PCN), they incorrectly transcribed the address passed to them by DVLA. What other reason can there be for two documents going missing, (PCN and Charge Certificate) ?

OP, do not miss the deadline for submitting your Statutory Declaration or things will get mega-difficult. Your reason for the declaration is non-receipt of the original PCN.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 20:46
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OP your timescale is set for you

you must file your statutory declaration this triggers the date of PCN and you then have 14 days to pay the discount or 28 days to pay the full amount, or make representations

We can make a representation that will get this to adjudication, there you will have a good chance of winning your appeal due to the delay

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 20:52


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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 23:59
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Tigers.
Can you just signify your understanding of what you need to do first.

and can you please answer my question about the PCN pages in post #15


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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