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PCN - clamped over a year later in different vehicle
GmLeo
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 13:57
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Hi,

My first post.
This one goes back a few years May 2014.

Whilst carrying out my duties during a landlord gas safety certificate I banged my head on an overhead beam in my clients corridor.
I almost knocked myself out.
I fell to the floor and saw stars before my eyes. I had to stay sitting down on the floor for at least 5 minutes because I was still dizzy.
This caused a delay of around 10 minute getting back to my van, a yellow fiat.

The bang to the head was just the start of a much bigger picture which in a nutshell ended with a diagnosis of PTSD.
Seeing stars gave me flashbacks to the last time I saw "stars".

I tried to appeal the ticket with the council, numerous emails, who refused to listen, RBKC (Kensington Council) London.
They asked me for a Doctors note to prove it, but I didn't go to the Doctor.

Over a year later, Sept' 2015 I woke to find a bailiff from Task Enforcement had clamped my van, a different van, a Black VW Caddy, full of my tools.
I lived on a private road.
The bailiff was not able to produce the KE reference number when requested, nor show me any kind of warrant.
He would not even allow me to contact RBKC parking to discuss or clarify the legality of enforcement and so he proceeded to call a tow truck.

It is my understanding that clamping on private land commits an offence under Section 54 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
Is it also a breach of Regulation 4 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013?

I was held to ransom, pay £437 immediately or have my van towed (with tools inside) and pay even more for the release of.
When I wrote to the council all the above information, threatening legal action they basically said, do it, take them to court, baiting me.

What, if anything, can I do to reclaim this? I feel it was/is unjustified, illegal, unfair, just plain legalised robbery.
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post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 13:57
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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 15:09
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QUOTE (GmLeo @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 13:57) *
I tried to appeal the ticket with the council, numerous emails, who refused to listen,

What stages of challenging did you go through?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 15:14
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You are conflating two issues here.

Bailiffs have a lawful right to seize goods in respect of an outstanding debt from a PCN.

You can challenge the debt, via TEC (traffic enforcement centre, Northants) if circumstances like not receiving official notices.
This can reset the PCN back to Notice to Owner Stage and as such, further enforcement costs already paid must be refunded.

Then there is the question of whether the bailiffs had acted unlawfully by seizing exempt goods (tools, possibly the van) or unlawful entry.
That it is a private road does not automatically mean they had no right of entry, they can seize on public highways (which a private road can be) and on your premises.
This has nothing to do with the PCN, it relates solely to the actions of the bailiffs and could form a basis of a complaint to the council, compensation or claim via the courts. Or may not.

On the PCN.
Did you receive....????
PCN
Notice to Owner.
Charge Certificate
Order for Recovery

Did you formally challenge the Notice to Owner?
If so, did you receive a Notice of Rejection?
If so, did you Appeal to Adjudicator?
If so, what happened?
Did you pay at any time?
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 18:53
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QUOTE (GmLeo @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 13:57) *
I tried to appeal the ticket with the council, numerous emails, who refused to listen, RBKC (Kensington Council) London.

There is a formal appeals process, that ultimately gives you a right to appeal to the independent adjudicator at the tribunal, see the process here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

It sounds like the appeals process somehow broke down, but we'll never work out what happened or what your should do next unless you spell out exactly what happened. You need to answer all of DancingDad's questions, otherwise our ability to help you will be severely limited.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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GmLeo
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 20:21
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Thanks for your response.

I'm on a new PC, my old hard drive became corrupt, so don't have this information to hand anymore.
Just from memory.

Pretty sure I had a PCN & Notice to owner.
Probably received a notice of rejection, but honestly don't remember for sure. Re: appealing to an Adjudicator, probably not.
Was in a bad way at the time, I do remember writing to the council telling them that they've extorted money from a vulnerable person, as I'd informed them of my PTSD, obv's this was after the fact.
I didn't make any payments at any time, not until the bailiff turned up.

Sorry I can't be more clear.
Think I've thrown away the original paperwork too, felt it was bad chi to keep it around.



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 15:14) *
You are conflating two issues here.

Bailiffs have a lawful right to seize goods in respect of an outstanding debt from a PCN.

You can challenge the debt, via TEC (traffic enforcement centre, Northants) if circumstances like not receiving official notices.
This can reset the PCN back to Notice to Owner Stage and as such, further enforcement costs already paid must be refunded.

Then there is the question of whether the bailiffs had acted unlawfully by seizing exempt goods (tools, possibly the van) or unlawful entry.
That it is a private road does not automatically mean they had no right of entry, they can seize on public highways (which a private road can be) and on your premises.
This has nothing to do with the PCN, it relates solely to the actions of the bailiffs and could form a basis of a complaint to the council, compensation or claim via the courts. Or may not.

On the PCN.
Did you receive....????
PCN
Notice to Owner.
Charge Certificate
Order for Recovery

Did you formally challenge the Notice to Owner?
If so, did you receive a Notice of Rejection?
If so, did you Appeal to Adjudicator?
If so, what happened?
Did you pay at any time?



I've got two email I sent to RBKC, which includes the PCN number, or case number - KE2316581A
I could probably get all the correspondence from them. It should still be on their system.

Would I be right in thinking I can still act even now as it's less than 6 years? As in, not yet statute barred?

Thanks

QUOTE (GmLeo @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 20:16) *
Thanks for your response.

I'm on a new PC, my old hard drive became corrupt, so don't have this information to hand anymore.
Just from memory.

Pretty sure I had a PCN & Notice to owner.
Probably received a notice of rejection, but honestly don't remember for sure. Re: appealing to an Adjudicator, probably not.
Was in a bad way at the time, I do remember writing to the council telling them that they've extorted money from a vulnerable person, as I'd informed them of my PTSD, obv's this was after the fact.
I didn't make any payments at any time, not until the bailiff turned up.

Sorry I can't be more clear.
Think I've thrown away the original paperwork too, felt it was bad chi to keep it around.



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 15:14) *
You are conflating two issues here.

Bailiffs have a lawful right to seize goods in respect of an outstanding debt from a PCN.

You can challenge the debt, via TEC (traffic enforcement centre, Northants) if circumstances like not receiving official notices.
This can reset the PCN back to Notice to Owner Stage and as such, further enforcement costs already paid must be refunded.

Then there is the question of whether the bailiffs had acted unlawfully by seizing exempt goods (tools, possibly the van) or unlawful entry.
That it is a private road does not automatically mean they had no right of entry, they can seize on public highways (which a private road can be) and on your premises.
This has nothing to do with the PCN, it relates solely to the actions of the bailiffs and could form a basis of a complaint to the council, compensation or claim via the courts. Or may not.

On the PCN.
Did you receive....????
PCN
Notice to Owner.
Charge Certificate
Order for Recovery

Did you formally challenge the Notice to Owner?
If so, did you receive a Notice of Rejection?
If so, did you Appeal to Adjudicator?
If so, what happened?
Did you pay at any time?


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DancingDad
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:05
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That's where I have problems GMleo and if I have, you will should you pursue the official route.

Government has set out a safeguard where if someone fails to receive the required notices they can, via a Witness Statement get the system reset to where it failed.
But it is a criminal act to lie on a WS and can carry a large fine.
Plus the WS is time barred 28 days (?) from when the Order for Recovery is raised.
So has to be sent with a request that it is accepted Out of Time.
With reasons why.

But the system doesn't make allowance for people who don't follow the system or ignore it.
Sorry to be blunt but at the moment, that is how it is reading.
I appreciate you may have had medical issues at the time but unless these can be proven, they will not help.

See what you can sort out, even if it is phoning the council and asking for a PCN history, not arguing the case, just a PCN history.
If we can piece it together we may be able to get you where you need to be.

Otherwise it is the official complaints route re the conduct of the bailiffs.
And that is another can of worms.
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Incandescent
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:08
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OP, the only way to revert the process is to submit an Out-of-Time Witness Statement. (very out of time in your case!!). This is a statement to the court that certain statutory documents were not received. As it would be out-of-time, it can be opposed by the council. The problem is that unless you can tell us what transpired at the time, we can't help you, sorry to have to say it.

- clearly you got the PCN
- did you submit informal representations to it ?
- did you get any response ?
- did you get a Notice to Owner ?
- did you submit formal representations to it ?
- did you get a formal notice of rejection of representations ?
- did you appeal to the adjudicators ? (it would seem not)
- did you receive a Charge Certificate
- did you receive an Order for Recovery ?

A lot of questions, and from what you have told us so far, it seems you have thrown all the paper away and can't remember what happened. Not good !!

Frankly, my view, FWIW is that you are on a hiding to nothing with this. The bailiffs took your money four years ago. Experience of this forum is even when OOTs are submitted close to the bailiffs knocking on the door, it is mega-difficult to revert the process.

I think it really is time for you to move on.


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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:39
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QUOTE (GmLeo @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 13:57) *
Over a year later, Sept' 2015 I woke to find a bailiff from Task Enforcement had clamped my van, a different van, a Black VW Caddy, full of my tools.
I lived on a private road.
The bailiff was not able to produce the KE reference number when requested, nor show me any kind of warrant.
He would not even allow me to contact RBKC parking to discuss or clarify the legality of enforcement and so he proceeded to call a tow truck.

Why have you waited more than 4 years before doing anything?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Yesterday, 10:13
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In reality, you have no hope of pursuing the council.

Whether you were to consider doing this within parking procedures or the ombudsman or through the court, IMO you would be given very short shrift.

You have an obligation to pursue complaints and disputes in a timely fashion and the dates show you have not. In addition, you appear to have no evidence.

To echo other posters, it's time to move on.

To take the last part of the 'four-stage' strategy set out in Yes, Prime Minister: A Victory for Democarcy:

"Maybe there was something we could've done, but it's too late now".
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GmLeo
post Yesterday, 12:54
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Ok, it was worth asking at least.

I've bought a lock pick set & a clampers padlock to practice on, I can now open it one handed in 20 seconds or less.
They won't get me twice.

Many thanks for all your replies.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 10:13) *
In reality, you have no hope of pursuing the council.

Whether you were to consider doing this within parking procedures or the ombudsman or through the court, IMO you would be given very short shrift.

You have an obligation to pursue complaints and disputes in a timely fashion and the dates show you have not. In addition, you appear to have no evidence.

To echo other posters, it's time to move on.

To take the last part of the 'four-stage' strategy set out in Yes, Prime Minister: A Victory for Democarcy:

"Maybe there was something we could've done, but it's too late now".


This post has been edited by GmLeo: Yesterday, 12:55
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Incandescent
post Yesterday, 15:28
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You're being rather naive, because all that will happen is they will seize your car rather than clamp it again.
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hcandersen
post Yesterday, 15:42
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And it's a criminal offence to interfere with such a device legally applied.

I've bought a lock pick set & a clampers padlock to practice on, I can now open it one handed in 20 seconds or less.
They won't get me twice.


Odd comment.
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GmLeo
post Yesterday, 17:48
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If you need the vehicle, say for work or something important, you're allowed to remove it.
It is illegal, or a crime, to damage it, cut it off with an angle grinder, or sledge hammer, and it's a crime to refuse to return it, that's theft.
But to remove it yourself, with a lock pick, without damaging it...


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 15:42) *
And it's a criminal offence to interfere with such a device legally applied.

I've bought a lock pick set & a clampers padlock to practice on, I can now open it one handed in 20 seconds or less.
They won't get me twice.


Odd comment.

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cp8759
post Yesterday, 19:50
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QUOTE (GmLeo @ Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 17:48) *
If you need the vehicle, say for work or something important, you're allowed to remove it.
It is illegal, or a crime, to damage it, cut it off with an angle grinder, or sledge hammer, and it's a crime to refuse to return it, that's theft.
But to remove it yourself, with a lock pick, without damaging it...

Only those with lawful authority for the purposes of PoFA 2012 can now clamp vehicles, generally these tend to be officers of the court (bailiffs, HC enforcement officers or whatever), police, DVLA clampers and so on. There are specific offences of obstructing such persons so in the case of a council ticket, you could be arrested for obstructing a county court bailiff.

Also, once a car has been seized by a bailiff, it's not your car any more, it belongs to the court. So you could be looking at offences of vehicle interference (if it's parked on a road), and if you were to drive the car, the bailiff can simply report you to the police and get you arrested for TWOC.

All in all, not such a smart idea.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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