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Multiple PCNs issued by Hammersmith and Fulham for same contravention
Lavender1992
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 22:59
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Hi, I am new to this so sorry if I do something incorrectly.

Today, I had two letters to my door saying I had received PCNs which I hadn't paid. So two letters, two PCNs. I go to my moped which I haven't ridden since early September and there's five sodden PCNs wedged down the back of the seat. I'm mortified. Never saw these and now they'll be full price, I guess £650 or so in total. I live on an estate and there's a covered area where people place bicycles and mopeds. I had left my moped right next to it as I'm a small girl and couldn't lift it right inside the area. I know maybe I was wrong because it wasn't right inside. But five pcns is so much for me, I really don't have any money, the bike is worth only £300 at most. If I had seen teh first pcn, I obviously would have moved my bike right at that moment but I didn't and now I have five pcns. Please if anyone can help me I'd be so grateful.

This post has been edited by Lavender1992: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 23:22
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post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 22:59
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stamfordman
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 23:11
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Hopefully we can help you get all but the first one cancelled as a continuous contravention.

See if there are pictures on council site for one of the PCNs.

where about - here's a GSV link to Sulivan Ct:

edit

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 18:34
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Lavender1992
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 23:17
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156 Sulivan Ct
https://maps.app.goo.gl/A5EEyxR4y2oDVH166

It is the little stone path there leading to the covered shaded area!
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 08:47
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OP----What is the contravention code on the PCNs?

Next, this is estate parking so there should be a great big noticeboard at the entrance detailing parking provisions. We need a photo. For instance does it detail restricted areas, indeed are there notices like "Keep off the Grass". How would the OP know that was a restricted area?

Looks like an Off Street contravention so we might have to look for an Order.


Does a scooter require a residents permit?

The continuous contravention issue should see most PCNs cancelled but I would check with the Council as to how many are outstanding.


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 09:59
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stamfordman
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 10:13
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here're two entrances - permit holders only past this point.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4701123,-0....6384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4692926,-0....3312!8i6656


here's the order:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2544228

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 10:26
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hcandersen
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 11:34
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OP, let's have the background pl.

The PCN posted alleges a contravention in a car park. Therefore there must be an order designating the location, and by extension probably the whole estate, as a car park.

That it is an estate bears upon the contextual issues and this is what I want to explore.

Firstly, are you a resident and tenant? If so, then who exactly is your landlord i.e. to whom do you pay your rent? This is unlikely to be the council because social housing such as this is normally controlled by an arm's length company, not the council.

But only the council could make an order designating this as a car park.

And what is 'this'? It cannot be all roads etc. because it seems clear from the DYL and 'No Loading' markings and signs that there are public roads which criss-cross the area. It therefore follows that the area as such cannot be a car park,

Detail.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 12:02
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The order says:

(b) every vehicle must be parked wholly within a marked parking bay (vehicles are not permitted to park in any other areas on the estate, including footways);

(h) A motorcycle, may be left in a parking bay free of charge, provided the use of that part of the parking place is not closed or reserved by order of the Council;

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Lavender1992
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 13:20
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I'm a resident of Sulivan Court, I pay the housing association rent each month. I realise I've probably broken a rule but I saw other people parking their mopeds where I was parking mine so I believed that it was okay. Which was stupid of me. Somebody told me it was where everyone parks their moped. I get that I did something wrong but can't it be that I just pay one fine, not five? As I didn't see the five of them before 😔 this is tremendous, I'm poor or I wouldn't be living on a council estate owning a bike that doesn't work, I feel like it's ruined my life.
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Lavender1992
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 13:37
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Would be a code 81 PCN for parking in a restricted area of a car park.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 15:30
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@stamfordman, the order doesn't, we haven't seen it, this is just the Gazette notice.

The signs are TOSH, and have NO effect as regards this contravention or ANY contravention associated with CAR PARK parking places because it's not a CAR PARK sign.


permit parking area”
an area—
(a)into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and
(b)where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)


Road, not off-road!

AND unless 'restricted area' is defined in the order, the contravention (which has not been conveyed anyway) could not occur.

OP, it is b******s.

They should get their a***s kicked if this got anywhere near an adjudicator.

OP, by the way, what, if anything, does your tenancy agreement say about parking?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 15:31
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Lavender1992
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 17:50
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Eeeee 😔
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 18:14
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HCA as the grist of it. The order may say car park but for the man on the Clapham omnibus, if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck its a duck. and the signs an markings say duck hunting not allowed.

The permit zone entry signs say past this point, but then all the other signs caveat that with no parking in marked bays by permit holders. A permit holders only and marked bays are at odds with each other and both cannot legally exist


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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 20:11
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Lavender1992 the tenancy agreement doesn't really come into it, this is a statutory PCN not a contractual dispute.

IMO this should be winnable because the council would fail at the first hurdle, i.e. where is the terms and conditions board for the car park?

Lavender1992, I think you need to help us to help you, post up

1) All the PCNs (as in the physical paper tickets not the online version), both sides in full, and
2) All the council photos, these will be on the council website.

In any case continuous contravention can beat PCNs 2, 3, 4 & 5 regardless of anything else.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:14
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Looks like Lavender has two NTOs (notice to owners) - you must post these too.

Leave in all dates.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

As both I and CP have noted, we would aim to get all but one cancelled as a continuous contravention.

Generally - we've had several cases with these estate orders but not for some time - I think Hackney was one where they've put in recent orders for most of their estates. As in those cases, I don't think members reached a consensus on what was right and wrong.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:15
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:42
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:14) *
As both I and CP have noted, we would aim to get all but one cancelled as a continuous contravention.

That's a worst case scenario, I think a decent case can be made that if there's no T&C board, there's no T&Cs to be abided by or breached so there can't be any PCNs either. So we have a shot at getting them all cancelled.


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hcandersen
post Yesterday, 08:37
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OP, don't worry about the tenancy, it's standard fare.

The important point is that it forms part of a contract.

And that contract comprises the tenancy agreement and any other matters which you have AGREED with the landlord and which must be memorialised in exactly the same style and form as the tenancy agreement.

So, who is the landlord?
What other agreements regarding parking have you reached with them, in writing, if any?

And what is 'an official space'? You are a tenant; the agreement anticipates that you might have a vehicle; it then refers to 'an official space'.

Your agreement is with the landlord, so designating and allocating 'official spaces' is between you and them, not the council who cannot simply designate spaces and allocate 'permits'.

And any enforceable breach of your agreement is only a matter between you and the landlord.

The above may be material and may bolster your position.
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Earl Purple
post Yesterday, 09:37
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Firstly it is one continuous contravention as you clearly did not move the vehicle between the PCNs, thus they were all attached. Thus you should be able to get 4 cancelled.

As you have missed the 14-day discount period you may as well go all the way to the final appeal, for which the primary challenge is simply that H&F council do not have the authority over the piece of land on which you parked.

Whilst they clearly control areas of the car park that are not parking bays, is the place where you parked part of the car park at all? I don't really know the layout but it appears to be some space belonging to the property where the public (on foot) do not have a right of way, unlike a car park where they do.

Let the council prove they have the rights to administer the actual place where you were parked. The worst is that you will end up paying the £130.

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hcandersen
post Yesterday, 10:18
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Whilst they clearly control areas of the car park that are not parking bays,

It is not a car park i.e. an area designated under an order and marked and signed as required with the the Ts and Cs of use and penalties for non-compliance being prominently displayed.
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Lavender1992
post Yesterday, 21:57
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THank you for your patience, I had to photo all the tickets and decrease sizes etc which I am terrible at !!!! Thanks so much everyone for your help so far.... I was feeling terrible and miserable and now I really have hope that I won't be bankrupted by this !!!!

I have three more of the original tickets to upload but I think I ran out of space now... they say the same as the other original tickets but with different dates lol

I have just realised that it was the same civil enforcement officer on every single ticket, he or she must really want me to pay
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