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bus lane or bus gate ticket anpr, road usage change to bus lane
stestrange82
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 23:06
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Hi all ive attached a link to the google map location and a link to the video footage and the ticket i have been issued at the end of this thread.

basically i have been issued a fine for driving in a bus lane

this is a route i have used on odd occasions over the past 18 months or so while my daughter has been attending college and i only use it whens shes late and i give her a lift because she has very heavy and expensive tv recording equipment with her so we use the loading and unloading bay on this road.

The road never used to be a bus lane or bus gate as someone has mention it could be. it has only changed since the end of September and this will have been my first time going up the road since they have changed it. I basically wondered if anyone knew if it was worth appealing and if there's any quick drafted up appeal message i could send as im not good at this type of thing.

from what i can see the only signage that's changed is the 2 signs on the post which would have been on my left when coming through the crossroads i don't believe i would have had time to change my direction also i would have had a restricted view due to the bus in front of me. i also cant see anything stating its a bus lane on the road markings


i would be really grateful for any help

Thanks stephen


link for parking ticket and video
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiXMPqeJpBdVgpY1-dN...URmkCQ?e=cDbJ3N

googlr maps link
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Beck+St,+...33;4d-1.1428094
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post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 23:06
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Neil B
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 00:55
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As you say, it must be new; not on GSV.

Any chance you can get a pic of the sign? Just one I can see in the vid.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 07:46
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NOTTINGHAM CITY COUNCIL (BECK STREET AREA, NOTTINGHAM) (BUS LANE AMENDMENTS AND PROHIBITION OF DRIVING RESTRICTIONS) EXPERIMENTAL ORDER 2019 (TME 7324M)
Came into force 30 September 2019:-
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...WRcj7aSoiECNI9A

We need to see a photo of the signs at the start of this restriction.

Can't see any road markings on the video.

Lots of advanced warning:-

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/notting...tingham-3510951


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 10:16
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Incandescent
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 10:44
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So venal and rapacious Nottingham CC is now devious too. They can't enforce No Left or No Right turns as it is police matter, so just make the street buses-only which they can enforce, even though there is no need for this. Really wicked people !

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 10:44
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stestrange82
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 12:40
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Hi so going off the information provided by myself and other members have I got any grounds for appeal.

the sign the have swapped it for an updated one which is rather sneaky as it only has 1 small adjustment and the matrix sign they are talking about I dont believe it was working at the time but I'm going to see if I still have footage on my dashcam. But I believe I wouldnt have seen any of these signs due to the bus in front of me which would have restricted my view of the road.

from my knowledge the only signage that has changed is the 2 on the corner of the junction of the new bus gate and the solar powered matrix. the normal sign has been switched and replaced by 1 of the same size. so wouldnt be noticeable to someone who drives it regular I dont think there is enough advance warning of the new road layout. the signage changes they have made are all within 30 years of each other smack on top of the crossroads surely there should be several signs on the lead upto the junction for several months to show this small change but very costly change to drivers
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Incandescent
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 12:59
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To win this you have to convince an adjudicator; Nottingham will never give way, they love the money too much. The only credible appeal will be on inadequate signage, so to test if this is a runner, post up photos of your approach to the junction and the entrance to the street.

Bear in mind if you go to adjudication, the full PCN penalty will be in play, but I think it will be anyway, as Nottingham are so venal they never re-offer the discount after a bus lane appeal, so make a rod for their own back, the idiots, as it's then a no-brainer to take them to TPT.
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Neil B
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 13:44
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 00:55) *
Any chance you can get a pic of the sign? Just one I can see in the vid.

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 07:46) *
We need to see a photo of the signs at the start of this restriction.


QUOTE (stestrange82 @ Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 12:40) *
the sign ------ sign --------- these signs -------- signage ------normal sign ------the signage


dontknow.gif

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 13:49


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 14:08
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OP----- we have had various bus lane cases with this Council and there has been at least one High Court case where it got its head handed back on a platter.

The signs are critical to your case especialy if this is a new restriction. On the traffic web the entrance to Beck Street is shown as No Entry, from the newspaper article the sign seems to be the flying motorcycle.

So our first consideration is whether you have the right contravention, if not you win.

Our second consideration is to determine if this is a bus gate and if so whether the lack of carriageway markings means signage is inadequate. If inadequate ---you win.

Our last consideration is to determine whether any of the exceptions in the core Order apply eg loading which might apply to you entering Beck Street.

I just hope they marked it as a Pedestrian Zone!

So we need to see a photo of the sign and any associated plates.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 14:09
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stestrange82
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 16:41
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I've attached 2 photos and a video of the entrance to the street and the cross road on the link in my first post so anyone can access them. please mind me talking in the background. from my knowledge the matrix sign on the day was much closer to the lights as you can see it on the video evidence they supplied and the new signs on the junction of the gate on the day I was caught there was only the signs on the left which would suggest they have added more due to lack of signage but the signs with writing on was so small I couldn't even read them with my prescription lenses on until I was in the middle of the crossing.

hope the video and pictures help if not I can get my daughter to get some more pictures on monday.
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stestrange82
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 16:57
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link for parking ticket and videos and photos
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiXMPqeJpBdVgpY1-dN...URmkCQ?e=cDbJ3N
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Neil B
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 17:36
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Soz if I missed them?

Can't read those plates.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 21:45
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As I see it there are two points: -

1. The advance sign is almost totally concealed by the sign in front of it, (no left turn), and is additionally badly placed and should really be on the left side. If it was on the left it would be totally visible to approaching motorists. Against that are the right turn arrows on the carriageway, but these can be obscured by traffic.

2. There are two signs indicating no cars or motorbikes at the street entrance. (the flying motorbike sign), but there are signs below that give an exemption but cannot be read until one is committed to entering the street, (as commented in the video). By then it is too dangerous to stop and reverse.

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stestrange82
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 23:19
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From what we remember the signs read except permit holders and the black blocks say R8 or R9 in the first box but cant remember what the second black box said then it says buses, taxis and loading only.

from checking both videos the signs we are talking about only used to be on the left hand side of the junction when they caught me yet when checking my video they have installed additional signs on the right side of the road aswell now which would suggest they already knew there wasnt enough signage to warn people

what do we think appeal or not
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 16:57
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QUOTE (stestrange82 @ Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 23:19) *
what do we think appeal or not

You might have an argument on the basis of what Incandescent says in post 12 above, but it's not a sure thing so you'd have to take your chances at the tribunal. As this seems to be a new restriction, we don't have any previous decisions regarding the signage at this location, so I think it's fair to say it could go either way. It's down to your attitude to risk and how much you want to fight this, if you chose to do so we will help you but we cannot guarantee the outcome.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 18:00
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I just get error 404 when I try to open the link


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 18:06
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My take on this is that the flying motorcycle sign prohibits vehicles with exceptions.


Ergo the accompanying plate reads "except buses" but that in itself does not constitute a "bus gate" which is usually defined as a bus only street where sometimes other vehicles are permitted. Here we have a cart before the horse situation especially since the AWS specifies a "bus gate".

It is clear from the Notice I posted that the Council wished the Order to "To introduce a prohibition of driving (bus lane)". But they cannot enforce a Section 144 Transport Act 2000 PCN without there being a bus lane order in place.

If it is a bus lane/gate, camera signs and road markings have to be in place otherwise the signage is inadequate under Reg 18 LATOR 1996.

The old Oxford bus lane case (Duffy) is important.

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff...0d03e7f57ea8a0a


Mick


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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 20:06
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 18:06) *
If it is a bus lane/gate, camera signs and road markings have to be in place otherwise the signage is inadequate under Reg 18 LATOR 1996.

The old Oxford bus lane case (Duffy) is important.

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff...0d03e7f57ea8a0a

Camera signs are never a requirement anywhere. The judgment in question is here https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2010/894.html and as I understand it, it says the exact opposite, i.e. a flying motorcycle sign with an "except buses" exception plate is a perfectly lawful way of signing a bus gate. The Manchester Oxford Road scheme uses exactly the same signage and while it's been criticised for positioning and visibility, nobody has ever suggested that the wrong signs have been used.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 20:31
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No, you are missing the point about the traffic order in the Oxford case-- that's the difference. The CA took the view that since the Order made no mention of a bus lane the designated part of the street could not be a bus lane. The points I mentioned in my last post (the Order, AWS etc) certainly mean that this is a bus lane.

I have no gripe about a 619 sign designating a bus lane; my gripe is about the lines and signs which are inadequate IMO--road markings are absent and the camera warning is not at the crossroads. How on earth can a motorist determine that they will get a bus lane penalty if they enter that street?

Mick
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:12
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 20:31) *
my gripe is about the lines and signs which are inadequate IMO--road markings are absent and the camera warning is not at the crossroads. How on earth can a motorist determine that they will get a bus lane penalty if they enter that street?

If you go past a 619 sign with an except buses plate, you might get a PCN. Neither camera signs nor road markings are needed. Whether the signage in this case is adequate under LATOR or whether the traffic order is defective are different matters entirely. I've not seen any evidence to suggest the traffic order would be defective, though it would be sensible for us to check so I've asked for it.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:18


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:57
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 21:12) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 20:31) *
my gripe is about the lines and signs which are inadequate IMO--road markings are absent and the camera warning is not at the crossroads. How on earth can a motorist determine that they will get a bus lane penalty if they enter that street?

If you go past a 619 sign with an except buses plate, you might get a PCN. Neither camera signs nor road markings are needed. Whether the signage in this case is adequate under LATOR or whether the traffic order is defective are different matters entirely. I've not seen any evidence to suggest the traffic order would be defective, though it would be sensible for us to check so I've asked for it.


After the Shakespeare street case, I think they put their bus lane orders in order


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