PCN and Car Pound, Car given a PCN and then towed away |
PCN and Car Pound, Car given a PCN and then towed away |
Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:23
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,516 |
Hi there! Any help would be much appreciated, however I only have until 18th November to appeal to the adjudicator!
On Sunday 01/09/2019, at approximately 8pm I parked as normal outside my residence and there was no suspended parking notice present. I would not have left the car there if there had been a parking suspension notice present. I left the car there all week because I get the train to work. I noticed on Friday 06/09/2019 that my car was no longer where I had parked it because of some road works. My car had been towed and I had to pay a total of £305 to get it out of the pound that evening (please see attachment_1 showing the breakdown and attached PCN). Unfortunately I did not know about this forum so I appealed with my email below: [i]Re: PCN No: TT27893428 (combined total £305) I wish to appeal and make representations against all of the penalty charges served upon me on the 6th September 2019 on the following grounds which are covered in further detail in this letter. E) The place where the vehicle was at rest was not in a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions. I arrived in my vehicle at the place of rest on Sunday 1st September 2019 at approximately 8pm. There were no suspended parking signs present that explained this parking space would become a suspended bay. The sign that can be seen on the attached picture was not present at the time of me bringing the vehicle to rest at this place. There was no reason for me to not park there and leave my car at rest. G) There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the council (in accordance with the Traffic Management Act 2004, the General Regulations or the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007. In addition to the Secretary of State’s statutory guidance the DfT published further guidance for the benefit of Local Authorities. This publication is known as the “Operational Guidance to Local Authorities” and this gives further clarification in regard to traffic signs. 8.35 Authorities should not issue PCNs when traffic signs or road markings are incorrect, missing or not in accordance with the TRO. These circumstances may make the Order unenforceable. If a representation against a PCN shows that a traffic sign or road marking was defective, the authority should accept the representation because the adjudicator is likely to uphold any appeal. An enforcement authority may be acting unlawfully and may damage its reputation if it continues to issue PCNs that it knows to be unenforceable. For the reasons explained above I require the council to acknowledge their error and therefore cancel this penalty charge forthwith.[/i] The appeal has been rejected and they have provided a picture of my car in the space with what they claim to be a parking suspension notice (please see attachment_2). The picture is not dated and this does not prove that there was a suspended parking notice present when I parked there. Please can anyone be of assistance with what I should do next? Many thanks in advance! This post has been edited by Ambient111: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:27
Attached File(s)
Attachment_1.pdf ( 1.34MB )
Number of downloads: 116
Attachment_2.pdf ( 542.75K ) Number of downloads: 99 |
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Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:23
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Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 10:44
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#21
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
@hca
Thanks. (f)that the penalty charge or other charge paid to secure the release of the vehicle exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case; or (g)that there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority. I believe (f) has precedence. Mick |
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Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 17:15
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You can file an appeal on as many grounds as are relevant, you only need one to win. There's no order of precedence as far as I'm aware.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 18:13
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,516 |
I'm a bit confused how I should appeal. Shall I just see what the adjudicator comes back with after appealing with no additional information? Or should I reference the previous cases similar to mine and the additional day storage?
Thanks! |
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Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 19:58
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You misunderstand: the point of registering the appeal is twofold:
1) In a significant minority of cases, the council doesn't contest the appeal at which point any time and effort put into drafting an appeal becomes a waste of time 2) If the council does contest the case, it will put forward its evidence in an evidence pack, you gain a tactical advantage in seeing the evidence pack before you submit your appeal to the adjudicator. In this case, it is particularly important as we don't know if the council has any better quality pictures of the sign. So, you register the appeal and wait and see what the council does next. As the council already has your money, it will almost certainly contest but at least then we'll have the benefit of being able to write the appeal with the full knowledge of what evidence the council has. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 22:01
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,516 |
Thanks @cp8759 and for everyone's input! I have lodged my appeal and will provide evidence at a later date. I will post on here again when I receive a response.
Thanks again for now! |
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Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 07:39
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,516 |
Hi all, please see below response from the environment and traffic adjudicator. I have until 11th December to submit any evidence (5 days before the case will come into the list for decision), however I will only receive a copy of the Enforcement Authority’s evidence directly from them at least three
days before the date the case comes into the list. Thoughts? London Borough of Tower Hamlets (The Enforcement Authority) Vehicle Registration Number: KB52AFV Penalty Charge Notice(s): TT27893428 Thank you for your appeal which was received on 17th November 2019. Your case will come into the list for decision on 16th December 2019. The actual date on which it will be considered by an Adjudicator depends on the number of appeals awaiting decision. You will be notified of the decision. We have sent a copy of your appeal to the Enforcement Authority. The Adjudicator will determine your case on the basis of the information which both you and the Enforcement Authority send in. You must therefore ensure that you have sent everything you wish the Adjudicator to consider. The Adjudicator cannot contact witnesses on your behalf. If you wish the Adjudicator to consider witness statements you must obtain these yourself and send them to us. If you wish to add any further evidence to that submitted with your Notice of Appeal, and you have been issued a verification code by the Enforcement Authority, please upload your evidence via our website. If you do not have a verification code, please send evidence to the address at the top of this letter. All evidence should be received by us no later than 11th December 2019. Please quote your Case Reference in all correspondence. You should receive a copy of the Enforcement Authority’s evidence directly from them at least three days before the date the case comes into the list. If you require any further assistance, please contact us as soon as possible, either by telephone or in writing using the contact details at the top of this letter. For further details of the appeal process and procedures please see the information on our website at https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/environm...ors-your-appeal. Case Management Team |
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Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 20:16
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
In practice the authority only has 7 days from the date of that email to supply its evidence, see paragraph 3(3) here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/schedule/made
Nothing has changed, just post up the council evidence. Don't wait for the postal copy, check the "track you appeal" page on https://londontribunals.org.uk/ every couple of days, once the council submits its evidence you'll be able to download it and post it up on here. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 01:26
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 516 Joined: 27 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,840 |
In practice the authority only has 7 days from the date of that email to supply its evidence, see paragraph 3(3) here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/schedule/made Nothing has changed, just post up the council evidence. Don't wait for the postal copy, check the "track you appeal" page on https://londontribunals.org.uk/ every couple of days, once the council submits its evidence you'll be able to download it and post it up on here. If I recall correctly, both tribunals "claim" to have issued a blanket direction under this regulation from the Schedule that allows councils longer than 7 days. QUOTE Miscellaneous powers of adjudicators 15.—(1) An adjudicator may, if he thinks fit— (a)extend the time appointed by or under this Schedule for the doing of any act notwithstanding that the time appointed has expired; This is why councils can now take their time in submitting evidence. In London, is it still the case that what ever ground is filled out on the witness statement, a council is encouraged to serve a new NTO due to a general blanket tribunal direction? This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 01:44 |
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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 02:08
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The tribunal administrative team might have done something to that effect, but there's been at least one adjudicator who has said no such blanket directions can be made and the whole thing is a load of bollocks. There is no legal basis for a blanket direction, the tribunal has no power to set up Practice Directions as if it were a court.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 12:00
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The OP has the only evidence needed for the primary strand of appeal i.e. the receipt for removal of the vehicle, which shows the dates the vehicle was admitted to the pound and when payment was made. The period does not support the charges by virtue of not being in accordance with the Mayor's approved charges with which the authority are bound to comply.
..and the OP also disputes removal, but with less objective and hard evidence. |
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Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 12:08
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,516 |
Hi all!
@cp8759 you were correct, the enforcing authority have already uploaded their evidence, however the files amount to nearly 21MB. Given the attachment limit of 1.95MB on this forum, How can I share these documents with this thread? Thanks! |
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Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 12:34
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
put it on google docs, dropbox or such like
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Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 22:56
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,516 |
Hi all again, please see below Dropbox link for the evidence submitted by the enforcing authority (I have removed my personal details for privacy):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2kr8zihzzauhl0u/Evidence.zip?dl=0 I have until 11th December to submit my evidence and appeal. Thoughts? Many thanks! |
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Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 23:40
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
What jumps out to me other than that they were not entitled to charge a storage fee of £40 so the whole process is flawed is that the PCN submitted is not a true copy of the one served
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 07:56
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#35
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Others will advise, but is that a true copy of the PCN in their evidence pack?
Observation timing is not correct and the description of the contravention is not given in the body of the PCN. Mick |
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Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 01:05
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Others will advise, but is that a true copy of the PCN in their evidence pack? No it isn't, the original PCN can be seen here on page 2: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=at...st&id=67887 The PCN in the evidence pack is a completely different document to the PCN that was actually served. Para 3(3) of the Schedule to the Appeals regulations says: (3) Upon receipt of a copy of the notice of appeal sent to it under subparagraph (2), the enforcement authority shall within 7 days deliver to the proper officer copies of— (a) the original representations; (b) the relevant penalty charge notice (if any); and (с) the relevant notice of rejection. Does anyone have the storage charges regulations for London to hand? I've asked London Councils but I'm not sure I'll get a reply by 11 December. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 01:06 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 06:08
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
In London, is it still the case that what ever ground is filled out on the witness statement, a council is encouraged to serve a new NTO due to a general blanket tribunal direction? Off topic but I'll answer. No; only when the ground NtO not received is cited in WS. For all others it's 'refer to adjudicator' BUT some on a 'no action' basis to start with. e.g. 'Reps not rec'd' = council to ask appellant for copy reps. 'Rejection not received' = repeat rejection. I broadly agree with cp that LT are exceeding their remit but it must save a lot of time scheduling cases for the 'tryers on' who won't be turning up anyway. I searched a location in the register the other day for a period of only a couple of months and on the first page of 15, for 13 the decision was 'direction made', i.e. pay. All had failed to produce the reps they claimed in WS or SD had been sent. -------------------- |
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Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 13:24
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
OP, I am having great difficulty locating where this took place.
GSV and the photos are very different. Pl confirm exactly where this occurred e.g. Roach Road between ** Street and *** Street. Then we look at their plan which, other than for Roach, has no streets referred to by name. Then, having regard to how many vehicle spaces were in the parking place, we could look at whether the sign gave adequate details of the suspended area or whether it relied upon a motorist deducing from, perhaps, markings on the kerb, markings which could just as well indicate the limits of the works area, area to be tarmaced, location, type and extent of underground utilities etc... But let's get to grips with their evidence and leave other theoretical matters to one side. |
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Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 15:35
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Others will advise, but is that a true copy of the PCN in their evidence pack? No it isn't, the original PCN can be seen here on page 2: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=at...st&id=67887 The PCN in the evidence pack is a completely different document to the PCN that was actually served. Para 3(3) of the Schedule to the Appeals regulations says: (3) Upon receipt of a copy of the notice of appeal sent to it under subparagraph (2), the enforcement authority shall within 7 days deliver to the proper officer copies of— (a) the original representations; (b) the relevant penalty charge notice (if any); and (с) the relevant notice of rejection. Does anyone have the storage charges regulations for London to hand? I've asked London Councils but I'm not sure I'll get a reply by 11 December. The only confirmation of the rule I can find is this from Camden https://www.camden.gov.uk/vehicle-removals-clamps -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 15:51
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
My concern is that the more the OP sees these quasi-legal references the less they are inclined to focus on facts. And the clock's ticking.
This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 15:53 |
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