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Dropped Kerb Own Drive, Parking across one's own drive
Gumph
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 10:24
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I have lived in the same house for 35 years. Alongside the house, there is an alleyway that leads to my garage. The alleyway, which is private property, continues around the back of a few more houses that served, in the old days, to access bins. There are no other garages and, beyond my garage, the alleyway is so overgrown with scrub and brambles that it is difficult to walk let alone drive a car. No one has ever used it in decades. In addition, for security reasons, next to my house there is a gate across the alleyway/drive, to which I have the key
As my car has outgrown the garage, I tend to park across the drive. This, and the gate, is mainly to stop fly-tippers. About 15 years ago my neighbour, with whom I had a dispute, used to call the Council to get my car towed. The Council determined that this was abusive and that they had no problem if I parked across the drive. No one except me used it and the subsequently dropped kerb was not a crossing for pedestrians or cyclists. I also had this agreement with the local CEO
In August I returned from holiday to find 2 PCNs on my windscreen. I had left the car partially across the drive, enough for a small vehicle, wheelchair, etc. to use it but not enough for a fly-tipper to dump rubbish. The tickets were given over 2 successive days. Ironically, I have continued to park in the same place, as I have for 35 years, and have received no further tickets. Note, the CEO went up the alleyway (technically trespassing) to take evidentiary photos
I was, therefore, shocked, after explaining the above in an informal appeal, to have Lambeth reject my appeal as the ''PCN had been correctly issued'. As a point of interest, the Council rejected one PCN but has said nothing about the other. I queried this by email but the reply only referred to the same, rejected PCN
My informal appeal is now due and I seek advice on the best procedure to appeal. This is very time=consuming and going to the Tribunal would be even more so
I currently have insufficient space to upload docs as I have another posting. There do not seem to be any technical errors of the PCNs

This post has been edited by Gumph: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 10:26


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post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 10:24
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stamfordman
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 10:43
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Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

The second PCN can be contested as a continuing contravention.

I would certainly make formal reps on the first one from what you say.

Is a neighbour involved again do you know?
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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 11:01
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Could do with seeing a location.
There is an exemption for parking across DKs next to your property but not for shared drives.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86
The way it is worded does not worry on whether the DK is pedestrian, vehicle, cycle use though is normally taken as a DK across a drive.
Plus, the purpose of the DK is relevant as well as whether it is in use or historical.

Need to see all correspondence, if you have already made reps and been rejected, you are beyond informal stages, we need to know.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:59
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Can't agree with DD.

No exemption for parking 'next to property'.

The only exemption offered to the occupier of a property is where the dropped footway is 'outside residential premises', not beyond the boundaries of, but outside.

A shared access does not satisfy this criterion.

The alleyway leads to the OP's and others' garages and is clearly therefore a shared drive.

OP, the alleyway is gated therefore there must be a gating order which required the consent of all frontagers each of whom has a key, yes?

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Gumph
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 17:26
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Driveway in question if alongside my house. A few others have a right of way but it has never been used. Beyond my garage, it is a jungle and there are no lother garages. If needed, I could get everyone 'permission' to park across my drive. It is, after all, gated 10m beyond the pavement and I have the key
I have been rejected at the informal stage and have received the NTOs. One informal appeal never received a reply even though I sent q query as to the outcome. Historically, I received 3 PCNs about 12 years ago, all cancelled, none since
I don't think it is the neighbour this time as he no longer occupies the premises across the alleyway. I think it is just a new, keen CEO


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hcandersen
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 18:38
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You cannot get 'everyone else's permission' (which seems to confirm the shared use of the access!), this is not how it works.

And it's not 'your' drive if it is shared. If it was yours, you wouldn't need anyone's permission.
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cp8759
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 18:41
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 18:38) *
You cannot get 'everyone else's permission' (which seems to confirm the shared use of the access!), this is not how it works.

This is true, but it would be strong mitigation.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Gumph
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 19:09
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The suggestion of the neighbours' permission was to emphasize that my parking across my drive was acceptable and causing no one any inconvenience. Laws prohibit things because they negatively affect someone, individuals or society at large. The common practice is that no one other than I uses the drive and therefore the dropped footpath only affects me. Had this been a problem, the affected party would have had 35 years to raise an objection
The fact that a historical precedent has been set seems a strong argument as does the fact that Lambeth has cancelled 3 PCNs for the exact same 'contravention'
These dropped footpath tickets can really be really traps. Blocking someone in is intolerable; being ticketed for blocking yourself is ridiculous


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hcandersen
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 20:53
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It's not your drive, I do not know why you continue to believe it is.

If it's yours and therefore by extension the alleyway, then make a claim for adverse possession of the alleyway.

The law is clear: it is a contravention to park where you did.

Whether the authority wish to exercise discretion is for them, but it does not alter the legal position.

Where's the GSV?
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DJ Lexy
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:10
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The exemption only applies if the driveway is for one house - either your own, or someone you have permission from.

It doesn't apply to a driveway that you share with your next door neighbour, and it definitely doesn't apply to a shared alleyway.
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Gumph
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:18
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I don't know what a GSV is
Just to be clear, it is a drive that leads to my garage. The driveway is for my house. It is private land; I control it. I am the only one who uses it. Although a few of my neighbours have a right of passage dating from the 18C, they do not own it. I can park in my driveway so I do not see why I cannot park my driveway. In this case, I was sticking out to block fly-tippers. There was no one else who was blocked
In addition, by cancelling 3 previous PCNs for the same thing, and allowing the behaviour for 35 years, the Council has set a precedent


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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:32
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I've looked through the council photos, a car parked over a DK.
I've read the to-ing and fro-ing and am still none the wiser.
That this DK leads to an alley is neither here nor there.
I assume from the OP's words that it is alongside their house which to me makes it outside residential property.
It isn't as though it is half way down the street.
It is who owns the alley and who, if anyone shares it that matters.
OP says they own it but neighbours have right of passage.
If that is the case, to me it ain't shared.

There is also the case of purpose and whether or not it is still live, not historical.
Overgrown does not mean historical, nor does a locked gate make it unusable but it can be persuasive.

Plus legitimate expectation and history, if ancient of previously cancelled PCNs
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cp8759
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:13
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QUOTE (Gumph @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:18) *
I don't know what a GSV is

We need you to give us a link to the location on google street view so we can have a look, as this is what the adjudicator will do.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mummyof3
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 00:17
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I may be wrong

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4328808,-0....6384!8i8192
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DancingDad
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 00:27
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QUOTE (mummyof3 @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 00:17) *

If it is, hardly conclusive though you can see why a CEO would plonk on a PCN, it doesn't look "owned" therefore a footway/vehicle access.
Plus the white dogbone. Not something that has any meaning beyond advisory but it suggests the council has actively tried to stop parking across the DK.

Proof?
If owned by OP, what is on the deeds or land registry map ???
Does it help or hinder?

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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 08:40
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Despite .. 'I have been rejected at the informal stage and have received the NTOs.' the OP has not posted any documents or a GSV.

We have innumerable pin-hole photos of every aspect of their car except the underside and yet no way of putting anything in its correct context. We have claims which have no legal basis.

OP, if we can help then I'm certain that the accumulated views - which hopefully forms a consensus if not unanimous response - could help. But we need facts, not more narrative.

If all NTOs are the same, then post one in full leaving in all dates/times and provide the issue dates of the others.
Similarly with any written responses and your challenge(s).
A PCN in full;
GSV.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 08:42
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If it is that location council may say it's a crossing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4328969,-0....6384!8i8192
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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 10:07
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And the question of who holds keys to the gate remains unanswered.
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Gumph
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 11:44
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https://www.google.com/maps/place/66+Canter...,-0.1099551,21z
/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4876041dc8f3d353:0xbf8769d226a360b1!8m2!3d51.4329757!4d-0.1099444

The other link above is a good representation of the situation

Even blown up, my google map does not show the drive leading to my garage at the back of the property. The garage is at the back of my property about 50m from the road. The garage is at a right angle and not easily seen from the road

The alley is opposite a corner with Selsdon Dr which does not have a dropped kerb

I have the key to the gate and paid for its installation to stop fly-tippers

I apologise for the lack of docs but I am new to Pepipoo and have a second item on the site for which I posted 3 docs, leaving me, seemingly, without any further allowance to post docs for this PCN. If there is a way, please tell me. For the moment, the informal appeal rejection letter simple reads 'I have read the details of your letter and I am satisfied that the PCN was issued correctly and that there are no grounds for me to cancel it'


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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 11:47
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You use storage at another site, such as imgur, tinypics, etc. Host pictures there and copy the IMG tage links here - that way pictures load into the thread directly.
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