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Slough bus lane PCN rejected but could I win on appeal?, Bus Lane PCN
HiHoSilver
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 15:38
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Notice of Rejection arrived recently (via email only and after a month and a half).
My challenge was on the grounds of being forced into the bus lane as I came off the roundabout by aggressive tailgating driver right behind me.

I spotted velji's success with his Slough Bus lane PCN back in July/August. His grounds for representation were that the PCN was noncompliant with regulations because information required by law was not on the PCN so the PCN could not be enforced.
Slough Bus Lane PCNs are defective

I checked my Slough Bus Lane PCN and heyho! it omits the same information that is required to be on the PCN under the Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005.

I will now have to go to appeal if I choose to fight on. Can I use this defence as the basis of my appeal? (I used a different argument for the challenge which they of course twisted around in their rejection).

It looks straightforward to me if the PCN is defective. Just wanting to know if it's ok to change tack here (I didn't know about it at the time of my challenge).

Any advice on this is appreciated. Thank you.

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post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 15:38
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 16:12
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Post the PCN ALL of it except personal details

Post the representations

Post the rejection

post the video

Then we can offer advice


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stamfordman
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 16:22
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Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Put videos on Youtube, Imgur or such like.
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HiHoSilver
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 01:17
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Thanks PASTMYBEST and Stamfordman for offering to help with my Bus Lane PCN

First with the PCN:

other side

second page

other side


Challenge/representation was done online through the council website link to the parking office portal Slough PCN portal
filled in online form with personal data and box to paste in representation.



Evidence video -Yes Neil B - complete and short at only 7 secs. If another camera on the corner could show 1-2 secs earlier than the start here, the tailgater would have been captured right behind me.
Slough Bus Lane PCN

Notice of Rejection (NOR 5 pages)











Thanks for the advice on posting this lot. Feels like quite a fight already, but then my car isn't worth too much more than the fine.....

This post has been edited by HiHoSilver: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 23:31
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Neil B
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 01:39
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Is that the whole video?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 07:48
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 01:39) *
Is that the whole video?


I don't know why you redacted dates. they are very important reinstate them. From a quick look you have a couple of technical arguments is all


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cp8759
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 20:17
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There is a known flaw on the Slough bus lane PCN template, but it would be better if you just told us where this is. Reinstate the dates as well.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mummyof3
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 20:56
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https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5080768,-0....3312!8i6656
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HiHoSilver
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 21:03
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Evidence video - complete and short at only 7 secs. If another camera on the corner could show 1-2 secs earlier than the start here, the tailgater would have been captured right behind me.
The PCN should have included the mandatory 8(5) (n) (i) so i could go there in person and see their source video....
Slough Bus Lane PCN

Acknowledgement of online challenge/representation posted 22 Sept with confusing timelines. Challenge 10 days, representation longer. Online process does not distinguish between these. What I did was the first attempt.


As link I'd posted at start of this thread identifies flawed Slough Bus Lane PCN template says:


It occurred to me that an appeal on this basis may work for me as the Bus Lane PCN template is the same here as the one in with successful representation in July 2019. Required by law to state this text. Absent from my Bus Lane PCN so is also noncompliant with the legislation regarding bus lane PCNs.

This post has been edited by HiHoSilver: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 23:37
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HiHoSilver
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 00:20
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QUOTE (mummyof3 @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 20:56) *


Bang on mummyof3. From that view looks like I was shunted across the dotted line not the solid white... Must happen a lot just here. They must be coining it...







QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 07:48) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 01:39) *
Is that the whole video?


I don't know why you redacted dates. they are very important reinstate them. From a quick look you have a couple of technical arguments is all

I've changed the pics hopefully as requested. I got a bit paranoid thinking Slough parking office were sneaking around here after hours bonuses an all....

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 20:17) *
There is a known flaw on the Slough bus lane PCN template, but it would be better if you just told us where this is. Reinstate the dates as well.


Wellington Street heading East off sprawling roundabout. Dates now shown. 9 Sept recorded. 29 Oct NOR.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 01:39) *
Is that the whole video?


Sadly yes. The critical bit (tailgating) happened just before the start of what their camera shows.

This post has been edited by HiHoSilver: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 00:08
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 17:59
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You should just be aware that the ground quoted is not infallible, although it should not happen some adjudicators could rule the PCN is substantially compliant. I'm not saying you shouldn't appeal, but I don't want you to think it's risk-free either.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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HiHoSilver
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 01:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 17:59) *
You should just be aware that the ground quoted is not infallible, although it should not happen some adjudicators could rule the PCN is substantially compliant. I'm not saying you shouldn't appeal, but I don't want you to think it's risk-free either.


Thanks cp8759. I'll probably go with the flawed template defence as you outlined here in another case.
Interestingly, whilst wading through other stuff about bus lanes online I took a closer look at the location on Wellington street outside Sainsbury's.
The bus lane sign (advance indicator) is positioned way too close to the start of the bus lane. This is against regulations.

On appeal can I use a multi-pronged defence? I could use flawed template-non-compliant signage and avoid accident exemption.
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HiHoSilver
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 02:01
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The UK Traffic Signs Manual - Chapter 3 Regulatory Signs. 2008 includes bus lanes in great detail. It is not encompassed by the recent TSGR 2016 (according to the explanatory memorandum no 362 (part 4 Legislative context).

Here it says where the Bus Lane advance notice should be placed. Since Wellington Street is a dual carriageway with a 50 mph limit. The required position of the sign is at least 35m from the bus lane lead-in taper.

regulations on bus lane advance notice position




Here's how close it actually is - less than 10m....



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hcandersen
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 07:45
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OP, just so that you know, it's not even a defence to move over for an emergency services vehicle e.g. police, ambulance etc, therefore 'tailgating' would not be successful.
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 17:43
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QUOTE (HiHoSilver @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 02:01) *
The UK Traffic Signs Manual - Chapter 3 Regulatory Signs. 2008 includes bus lanes in great detail. It is not encompassed by the recent TSGR 2016 (according to the explanatory memorandum no 362 (part 4 Legislative context).

If you want to quote the TSM, I would suggest you use the 2019 edition https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...ic-signs-manual


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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HiHoSilver
post Yesterday, 00:42
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 07:45) *
OP, just so that you know, it's not even a defence to move over for an emergency services vehicle e.g. police, ambulance etc, therefore 'tailgating' would not be successful.

Thanks for the heads-up on that. I used the term here to indicate the scenario not to be exact. What happened was a little more complicated and I haven't made a tailgating case in my representation. The aggressive driver was almost at right rear bumper collision in a failed bid to overtake at first pass but succeeded in making me veer left into lead-in taper (NOT crossing thick white line).

Here's a sketch of the situation.


and here's how TFL (the model for bus lane enforcement) make their decisions, all laid out in a nice little decision tree:



Slough office did not try to contact me for the 'evidence should be sought where possible' Had they done so I would have suggested we look at the video in the office and agree it is inadequate to make a clear decision.
That in turn raises three points. The flawed PCN bus lane template frustrates this ever happening since it has been denied me. and is my right by law.
Second point. Article 2 of The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005 states (paraphrased for straight talking):

The available video should enable information to be provided about any circumstances which may have caused the vehicle to be in the bus lane or the selected area (that would include the lead-in taper area upstream of the actual evidence video offered for view)

Third point. Since the NOR admits there was an operator, it also points to the frustration of my rights denied by the flawed PCN template. I wanna see any and all videos as is my right to do so at their office in person (explanation of the regulations below): The NOR states The contravention was noted by the camera operator who was observing real time images relayed from a fixed CCTV camera.

Article 2 states:

3. The equipment includes a recording system in which—
(e) where any part of the equipment is controlled manually, two simultaneous recordings are made of the camera output viewed by the operator.

So yes, let me see the duplicate video RECORDINGS (I guess the existence of two to ensure inadvertent changes or god forbid - tampering)

The NOR states "The contravention was noted by the camera operator who was observing real time images relayed from a fixed CCTV camera. Video footage was recorded of the
contravention taking place. Should you wish to view this footage please go to the following website https://3sc.slough.parkinguk.org/. - absolutely hilarious pointing me to nothing new only the video I've just discussed with them in detail in my representation which they are NORing (dog chasing tail video loop starts playing in my head)


One more before I go - Slough BC do not have any of their own Bus Lane TROs. Reading has 10. As such the regulatory framework for Slough Bus lanes is more straightforward.


I can for sure give up my original grounds for representation and go for another on appeal. The flawed PCN probably best. The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005 14 (3) (e) says I can include any and all grounds anew as I see fit.
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cp8759
post Yesterday, 10:58
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I agree the camera does not meet the certification criteria, but to be successful this argument needs to be persuasively phrased. For now I suggest you follow our standard approach and register the appeal on the tribunal website by just stating "full submissions to follow". Once this is done, the council has a 7 day deadline to supply copies of the PCN, the representations and the Notice of Rejection to the tribunal, most councils miss the deadline and that gives you an additional ground of appeal.

In the meantime post up a draft of your appeal for review, don't rush as once you register the appeal the tribunal will give you at least 21 days before you have to submit your full appeal wording.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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HiHoSilver
post Yesterday, 13:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 10:58) *
I agree the camera does not meet the certification criteria, but to be successful this argument needs to be persuasively phrased. For now I suggest you follow our standard approach and register the appeal on the tribunal website by just stating "full submissions to follow". Once this is done, the council has a 7 day deadline to supply copies of the PCN, the representations and the Notice of Rejection to the tribunal, most councils miss the deadline and that gives you an additional ground of appeal.

In the meantime post up a draft of your appeal for review, don't rush as once you register the appeal the tribunal will give you at least 21 days before you have to submit your full appeal wording.


Thanks once again cp8759 for the suggestion I follow the forum's standard approach on appeals. Is this approach outlined here somewhere? I just tried to find it but haven't yet. Perhaps it's in the Supporters area but I can't view those files just now because I'm not a registered supporter.
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cp8759
post Yesterday, 18:57
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Register the appeal on the tribunal website by just stating "full submissions to follow" in the further information box, details of how to appeal are explained in the rejection letter and on the tribunal website. There's nothing else to it so I haven't written a guide.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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