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PCN Contravention 27 - Hillingdon Council
jayj9
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 19:20
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Hi everyone

Can I please have your opinions about what to do for this PCN.

I have attached pictures below showing the PCN and the way my car was parked.

I admit that I was slightly over the dropped kerb edge, but as I was not obstructing the drive way I thought this would be fine as there was no white line by the drop of the curb indicating where it started and finished.

Also on the PCN it has two locations. I know that they are round the corner from each other but they are not the same place so I don’t know if that can be used in an appeal.

I take full knowledge that I may be in the wrong and if So I am sorry and will pay the fine but I just didn’t see a problem parking there.

Please give me your opinions on the matter and what you all think I should do.

Thanks jayj9

EDIT:
I’ve now added all the pictures onto this post below And attached the PCN.

Pictures I took.
https://ibb.co/B3Zd4Dg
https://ibb.co/djSvrtk
https://ibb.co/jrf1jdw
https://ibb.co/BLqrsVp
https://ibb.co/H2GPv9P
https://ibb.co/9qc1Y9L
https://ibb.co/wzhwD2m
https://ibb.co/HDP4VC4

Council pictures they took.

https://ibb.co/5Kp0msY
https://ibb.co/VBK0qsn
https://ibb.co/hfw0zLx
https://ibb.co/s2hzV32
https://ibb.co/wY8KVcH
https://ibb.co/XLxBk8x
https://ibb.co/WWVxfvH


This post has been edited by jayj9: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:23
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post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 19:20
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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 19:29
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Can't see pics well so put them on https://imgbb.com or such like.
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 19:47
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 19:29) *
Can't see pics well so put them on https://imgbb.com or such like.

And the PCN, it's to small to read.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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jayj9
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 20:43
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Alright thanks. I have attached the photos again but in a bigger size. Is that any better?
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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 20:55
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Are those council pics - you must get them.

Doesn't look like much of a contravention if at all - it's here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5306865,-0....6384!8i8192

And it's on The Avenue - 2 Penn Close is presumably the house that owns those garages but the front is around the corner.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 20:57
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 21:02
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Looks like you're only in front of the sloping part of the kerb, which doesn't count.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 21:05
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looks like a lot of the kerb is dropped there but by the fence. Hillingdon is one of the councils that has form in dishing out silly code 27s probably because the resident called them out.
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jayj9
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 07:35
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 20:55) *
Are those council pics - you must get them.

Doesn't look like much of a contravention if at all - it's here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5306865,-0....6384!8i8192

And it's on The Avenue - 2 Penn Close is presumably the house that owns those garages but the front is around the corner.



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 21:02) *
Looks like you're only in front of the sloping part of the kerb, which doesn't count.



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 21:05) *
looks like a lot of the kerb is dropped there but by the fence. Hillingdon is one of the councils that has form in dishing out silly code 27s probably because the resident called them out.


Thank you everyone for your responses.

Stamfordman these are not council pictures these are the pictures I took on my own on arrival to seeing the ticket on my car.
I will get the council pictures and post them in the forum.
And yes this is the correct location 2 penn close is around the corner and not on the avenue.
I do also believe that the owners must have called the council.

Cp8759 the car was around 3 quarters on the dropped part of the kerb. But there was no obstruction of anything. As there was no dropped kerb opposite and still plenty of space for the owners to get in and out and for people to get up and down the street.

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jayj9
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 09:39
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Alright I’ve had a look and attached the government photos onto this post.

There’s two other pics but they won’t post as they’re larger than available space. I will upload them in a minute when I find out how.

This post has been edited by jayj9: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 09:44
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stamfordman
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 10:03
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They are not saying you were encroaching on the garages if that is all the pics, just on a dropped part of kerb by a fence and tree. This is not a contravention.

Draft a challenge and we'll tweak.
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jayj9
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:06
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 10:03) *
They are not saying you were encroaching on the garages if that is all the pics, just on a dropped part of kerb by a fence and tree. This is not a contravention.

Draft a challenge and we'll tweak.


There’s two more pictures that I’ve put links for below. It wouldn’t let me attach as I had reached the maximum attatchment space.

https://ibb.co/MhFv3Rt
https://ibb.co/ky0QRbb

I will write up a draft and send it in here.

Thank you again.

This post has been edited by jayj9: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:09
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stamfordman
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:15
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This is the key pic and there is no way this is a contravention.

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cp8759
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:24
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+1, the kerb in front of the tree is not lowered for a statutory purpose so no contravention at all.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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jayj9
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:13
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:15) *
This is the key pic and there is no way this is a contravention.




QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:24) *
+1, the kerb in front of the tree is not lowered for a statutory purpose so no contravention at all.


alright so here is my appeal draft

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to appeal against the Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) dated 28/10/19 (PCN NUMBER) as I believe that the alleged contravention (code 27) did not occur.

I believe that contravention did not actually occur as the “dropped footway” (or dropped kerb) in question does not meet any of the statutory tests which prove the contravention.

(i) assisting pedestrians crossing the carriageway;
The location of this dropped kerb sits in the middle of a short section of a carriageway and this is right nect to another dropped kerb next to it.
It is inconceivable that the purpose of installing it was to assist pedestrians to cross the carriageway as there would be no beneficial purpose in crossing at this Dropped Kerb esp when there is a prominent dropped Kerb located nearby and no dropped kerb opposite on the other side of the road. (I will show image of the kerb)

(ii) assisting cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway;

There are no cycle paths or tracks which adjoin this lowered footway, neither is there a complementary lowered footway at this location to assist cyclists traverse the footway at this point. Given that cycling on the footway is not only dangerous but unlawful, the purpose of this lowered footway also cannot have been to facilitate an exit for cyclists travelling on the longitudinal aspect of the footway.

(iii) assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge;
This is clearly not the purpose of this dropped kerb. as there is a solid wall directly in front of the Dropped Kerb which clearly is not intended for vehicular movement and there is a continuation of the dropped kerb behind my car which is meant for a driveway which I was not obstructing at the time as shown in the photo (Show the photo that the parking inspector took)

Also i believe the following points also need to be taken into consideration as part of this appeal
1) There is a solid fence right behind the dropped kerb where I was parked.
2) No signage indicating a dropped kerb, another way to have made this clear that this isn’t a spot to be parked in is to erect signage,
3) Lack of proper road markings indicating a dropped kerb, as a dropped kerb to be defined as a dropped kerb the crossing places must be clearly marked with road Markings.

In this appeal I have made it clear why I consider the contravention did not occur,

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

(my name)
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jayj9
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:25
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Also while writing my draft I noticed them saying it was a "special enforcement area" what does this mean? and does this change anything?

thanks
jayj9
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stamfordman
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 16:04
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No need for it to be so long.

I am writing to challenge the Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) dated 28/10/19 (PCN NUMBER) as I believe that the contravention (code 27) did not occur.

None of the three statutory reasons for enforcing code 27 are in place here:

(i) assisting pedestrians crossing the carriageway
(ii) assisting cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway
(iii) assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge

As can be clearly seen from your own pictures, my car was parked adjacent to a fence and tree and was not encroaching on any part of the dropped footway in front of the garages.

I look forward to hearing that this PCN has been cancelled.

Regards

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 16:08
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cp8759
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 19:18
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Go with stamfordman's draft.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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jayj9
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 14:19
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 16:04) *
No need for it to be so long.

I am writing to challenge the Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) dated 28/10/19 (PCN NUMBER) as I believe that the contravention (code 27) did not occur.

None of the three statutory reasons for enforcing code 27 are in place here:

(i) assisting pedestrians crossing the carriageway
(ii) assisting cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway
(iii) assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge

As can be clearly seen from your own pictures, my car was parked adjacent to a fence and tree and was not encroaching on any part of the dropped footway in front of the garages.

I look forward to hearing that this PCN has been cancelled.

Regards



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 19:18) *
Go with stamfordman's draft.


Alright thank you both very much I am challenging the PCN now, and will keep you updated on what happens.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 14:56
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A slightly more detailed submission could be:

The authority will see that the dropped footway is asymmetrical with regard to the garages i.e. on one side the prohibited area ends where it should in line with the fence line parallel to the garages' driveway, while on my side it continues at least 2 metres past the opposite fence.

This length has no current purpose unless one likes driving into trees and by no stretch of the imagination could it be considered part of any leeway for turning, neither does it correlate with any rational design criteria.

In other words, this extended dropped footway served a different purpose other than facilitating safe access and egress to/from the garages.

It is unfortunate that at whoever's behest this part of the dropped footway was installed was not required to 'make good' the highway when their need ceased and I suspect that the highway authority are too strapped for cash to do it themselves, but this does not mean that unsuspecting motorists should be penalised.

Consequently, as the location does not meet a rational comparison with any of prescribed criteria, in this case vehicle access, then the contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled. In addition, the council will have to take a view on this location as regards briefing CEOs because the anomaly is not going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

Maybe save this for formal reps!
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jayj9
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 19:47
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 14:56) *
A slightly more detailed submission could be:

The authority will see that the dropped footway is asymmetrical with regard to the garages i.e. on one side the prohibited area ends where it should in line with the fence line parallel to the garages' driveway, while on my side it continues at least 2 metres past the opposite fence.

This length has no current purpose unless one likes driving into trees and by no stretch of the imagination could it be considered part of any leeway for turning, neither does it correlate with any rational design criteria.

In other words, this extended dropped footway served a different purpose other than facilitating safe access and egress to/from the garages.

It is unfortunate that at whoever's behest this part of the dropped footway was installed was not required to 'make good' the highway when their need ceased and I suspect that the highway authority are too strapped for cash to do it themselves, but this does not mean that unsuspecting motorists should be penalised.

Consequently, as the location does not meet a rational comparison with any of prescribed criteria, in this case vehicle access, then the contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled. In addition, the council will have to take a view on this location as regards briefing CEOs because the anomaly is not going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

Maybe save this for formal reps!


Thank you for your reply but I had already sent off the appeal by the time I had read this. However I will use it if any future cases appear or it could come in handy for other users.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 16:04) *
No need for it to be so long.

I am writing to challenge the Penalty Charge Notices (PCN) dated 28/10/19 (PCN NUMBER) as I believe that the contravention (code 27) did not occur.

None of the three statutory reasons for enforcing code 27 are in place here:

(i) assisting pedestrians crossing the carriageway
(ii) assisting cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway
(iii) assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge

As can be clearly seen from your own pictures, my car was parked adjacent to a fence and tree and was not encroaching on any part of the dropped footway in front of the garages.

I look forward to hearing that this PCN has been cancelled.

Regards



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 19:18) *
Go with stamfordman's draft.



I have received the response from Hillingdon and unfortunately it’s bad news. I’ve attached the letter below.

https://ibb.co/m8dhtFn
https://ibb.co/zJ5992t
https://ibb.co/tsMXV2B

This post has been edited by jayj9: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 20:21
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