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PCN for parking in a suspended bay or space
Jebus
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:06
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I received a PCN for parking in a suspended bay. I didn't actually know it was suspended as I drove into it from the 'wrong' side of the road. By the look of the images on the TFL website, there is sign on a post next to the car, however I can't tell what it says. From what i've read, it's down to TFL or whoever to make sure that the sign can easily be seen, however it was only displayed on one side and I had no idea it was even there. Do I have a case?
And just to add, the date on the pic is 13/9/19, and the date on the notice is 18/10/19 if that makes any difference.

[attachment=67465:pcn.jpg]

This post has been edited by Jebus: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:10
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post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:06
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southpaw82
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:17
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Is the PCN for speeding or some other criminal offence?


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Jebus
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:25
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Contravention 21: Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 22:35
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OP ---did you get a photo of the sign because AFAIA TfL does not have an approved sign via DfT.
Mick
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Incandescent
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:34
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So, your car is right beside the sign, yet you say you didn't see it. I think this will be a tough persuade job at the adjudicators !
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:40
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OP----post up the whole PCN without your address and vehicle registration. If the dates are awry that could be a possible solution. They have 28 days to serve a PCN from the contravention date.

Are you the owner of the vehicle?


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:42
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cp8759
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 12:43
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TFL have no authorised sign, and the sign does not substantively comply with anything found in the regulations.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jebus
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 19:23
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 23:35) *
OP ---did you get a photo of the sign because AFAIA TfL does not have an approved sign via DfT.
Mick


No I didn't because I didn't know it was there lol. The only thing which may be the sign is the one in the pic, which isn't really legible.


QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 10:34) *
So, your car is right beside the sign, yet you say you didn't see it. I think this will be a tough persuade job at the adjudicators !


Yeah sounds ridiculous, but I wasn't exactly looking out for a random sign that was backwards, in a place where I park all the time...


QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 10:40) *
OP----post up the whole PCN without your address and vehicle registration. If the dates are awry that could be a possible solution. They have 28 days to serve a PCN from the contravention date.

Are you the owner of the vehicle?


Mick


Will do. No i'm not the owner. The car's owned by a leasing company.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 13:43) *
TFL have no authorised sign, and the sign does not substantively comply with anything found in the regulations.


What exactly does this mean?

[attachment=67474:pcn_2.jpg]

This post has been edited by Jebus: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 19:18
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cp8759
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:18
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QUOTE (Jebus @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:23) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 13:43) *
TFL have no authorised sign, and the sign does not substantively comply with anything found in the regulations.


What exactly does this mean?

All signs must either be authorised by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, or there must be a special authorisation issued by the Secretary of State for transport. There is no parking suspension sign in the national regulations, so most councils have obtained a special authorisation, see the list here https://dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/index.php?...king+suspension

TFL has never obtained an authorisation for a parking suspension sign, so the sign is illegal. It is also an unlawful obstruction of the highway.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jebus
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:23
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So the contravention occurred on 13/09, and the date of the notice is 18/10. Which makes it 35 days. Can I 100% get off on that technicality?
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Jebus
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:55
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 21:18) *
QUOTE (Jebus @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:23) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 13:43) *
TFL have no authorised sign, and the sign does not substantively comply with anything found in the regulations.


What exactly does this mean?

All signs must either be authorised by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, or there must be a special authorisation issued by the Secretary of State for transport. There is no parking suspension sign in the national regulations, so most councils have obtained a special authorisation, see the list here https://dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/index.php?...king+suspension

TFL has never obtained an authorisation for a parking suspension sign, so the sign is illegal. It is also an unlawful obstruction of the highway.


I tried the link. It requires a password...

However, I did find this link: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3866.pdf
Is it the same?


From this link: https://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/parking/c...ention-code-21/

"The actual signs used for parking suspensions are usually designed by the council that is enforcing. This is because the Department of Transport do not have standard approved signs that can be used lawfully. So local councils must obtain approval for their own suspension signs from the Department of Transport before they can legally enforce."

So is that saying the council need approval of their own sign from the DofT, and then the council can enforce? But my letter is from TFL. Im confused.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 21:14
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Out of date and irrelevant because it's not a LB Croydon road.

And why wouldn't Item 22 in the Part 6 sign table apply?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/13/made
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Jebus
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:12
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:14) *
Out of date and irrelevant because it's not a LB Croydon road.

And why wouldn't Item 22 in the Part 6 sign table apply?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/13/made


How do you figure it's not a LB Croydon road?

I don't know what you're getting at by item 22. Please explain.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:17
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Its a TFL road, it is likely that the PCN originally went to the lease co who named you so it was reissued in your name the item 22 is a sign authorised for use when waiting and loading is temporarily suspended


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Jebus
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:31
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I had no idea that such a thing existed. Can you explain the difference between a TFL road and a non-TFL road?

As you said, item 22 is for waiting and loading, not parking. But I still don't know what point it is you're trying to make.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 23:22
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22
Diagram 640.1
Waiting, loading and unloading prohibited at a parking place where parking is temporarily suspended

So this would appear to deal with your second point.

As regards your first:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes


Just because a road is in borough X does not make it their road. Essentially you have private streets, borough roads, TfL roads and Secretary of State (trunk) roads.
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 09:05
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@hca
C'mon!
We've been through this before. If the sign you propose was sufficient then there would be no requirement for authorities to seek DfT approval for a suspension sign and yet they do even after the TSRGDs 2016 came into force. It is an obligation which they cannot escape.

I believe Edward Houghton suggested that sign would suffice on its own but rapidly backtracked. The sign is used for meter cowls when a suspension is in force.


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 09:06
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cp8759
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 13:57
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Thee DfT has authorised 17 more suspension sings since the TSRGD 2016 came into force, so there's no real basis to suggest the TSRGD authorisation is sufficient.

There's also the fact that the suspension sign is not actually visible in the photo, so I would call TFL and ask for the video. They will put the PCN on hold and send you a DVD in the posts. If the sign isn't readable in the video, there's no prima facie evidence of a contravention in any event.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jebus
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 18:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 14:57) *
There's also the fact that the suspension sign is not actually visible in the photo, so I would call TFL and ask for the video. They will put the PCN on hold and send you a DVD in the posts. If the sign isn't readable in the video, there's no prima facie evidence of a contravention in any event.


Now that's interesting. I will do this.

What are my other options in regards to contesting the pcn? I would appreciate it if someone could give me clear and concise info in laymans terms.

Thanks.
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cp8759
post Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 13:42
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QUOTE (Jebus @ Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 14:57) *
There's also the fact that the suspension sign is not actually visible in the photo, so I would call TFL and ask for the video. They will put the PCN on hold and send you a DVD in the posts. If the sign isn't readable in the video, there's no prima facie evidence of a contravention in any event.


Now that's interesting. I will do this.

What are my other options in regards to contesting the pcn? I would appreciate it if someone could give me clear and concise info in laymans terms.

Thanks.

In a nutshell your grounds are:

1) There is no evidence of what the details of the suspension are unless these are clearly visible in the video. For all we know, the suspension was not in force when you stopped

2) The sign TFL is relying on is illegal in any case because it's not authorised.

For now just get the video, we'll help you draft the representations.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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