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Yellow Box Barnet
toony616
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:32
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I have already appealed thsi to no avail, my exit was clear to the right, so i could have moved straight through box, my exit was not obstructed.

They have refused an appeal on these grounds, i have one possible further appeal. Is it worth it?

https://filebin.net/tyse61r029iph72e/Penalt....mp4?t=l8n18ago

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post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:32
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toony616
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 17:40
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has anyone watched this?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 17:46
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Post it on vimeo, youtube or such like - we don't like downloading things.

Post the PCN. Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
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Fredd
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:02
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:46) *
Post it on vimeo, youtube or such like - we don't like downloading things.

Those of use who like living on the edge might suggest that there's not much to be gained by waiting for a streamble link - OP's lane was blocked at exit, OP could have exited by moving into the lane to the right, but didn't - instead stopping in the box.


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DancingDad
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 19:21
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:46) *
Post it on vimeo, youtube or such like - we don't like downloading things.

Those of use who like living on the edge might suggest that there's not much to be gained by waiting for a streamble link - OP's lane was blocked at exit, OP could have exited by moving into the lane to the right, but didn't - instead stopping in the box.


That description falls squarely into an argument that adjudicators used to accept, that the stop was from choice as there was an available escape route.
Since a panel decision on yellow boxes, that has now been seen as you did not take it so you stopped due to stationary traffic.
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toony616
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 15:17
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so if i take this to a proper appeal, but then lose, will i get a further chance to pay 65 rather than 130?

i have been give another chance at £65
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nextdoor
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 15:21
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QUOTE (toony616 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 16:17) *
so if i take this to a proper appeal, but then lose, will i get a further chance to pay 65 rather than 130?
No if you lose at adjudication the full penalty is due
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cp8759
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 18:21
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Why don't you upload the PCN, your representations and the Notice of Rejection, so we can see what we're dealing with. Quite a few PCNs can be won based on technicalities in the paperwork, which is what you need because on the contravention itself, you have no chance.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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toony616
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 17:50
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Attached Image


I have attached the PCN, not a lot of info on it
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cp8759
post Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 13:27
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Well Barnet PCNs mis-state the timeframe when the council is entitled to serve a charge certificate. Although the exact wording has since changed, the principle is explained in Robert Atlas v London Borough of Barnet (2170053479, 24 April 2017) http://bit.ly/2KCRlnX

In simple terms, for charge certificate purposes the 28 day period starts with the date of service, which is two working days after the date of the PCN. So they're unlawfully cutting the 28 day period short by two days.

However I repeat, if you want to fight this on a technicality you must show us all the pages of the PCN, your representations and the notice of rejection.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 13:28


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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toony616
post Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 15:19
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my representations being what i initially said to them? it was very informal and just laid out that i had an escape route and that this was a valid excuse.

Would this have to go to court like a private parking ticket? confused as to how you can fight it, they can just say no?
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cp8759
post Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 18:36
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QUOTE (toony616 @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 16:19) *
Would this have to go to court like a private parking ticket? confused as to how you can fight it, they can just say no?

Unless there's been a printing error or something the rejection letter will explain the appeal process, which you can also read up upon here https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appe...ocess-explained

Basically now that the council has rejected, the matter is out of its hands. You can pay, or you can appeal to the London Tribunals, this is now out of the council's hands. The Tribunal is independent of the council and it's the only place in the entire process where you can get a fair hearing.

If there's any other errors in the paperwork (apart from the one I've already pointed out) those can be raised too, this is why I suggest you show us the documents in full.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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toony616
post Fri, 25 Oct 2019 - 11:12
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I have attached the full PCN below

Attached Image


Attached Image


Attached Image


Attached Image



Attached Image


My representation to them

"
I wish to appeal the PCN based on the following information:

The contravention does not occur if my exit was not blocked by stationary vehicles. In this case, the video shows I then had space ahead and to the right and was not in fact blocked by a stationary vehicle. This is much easier to appreciate from your camera than it was at the time for me, being low down in my car.
- And also from the video, the stop was minimal and in the bounds of 'de minimis'
the only thing stopping me leaving the box is traffic passing to my right and there not being a safe gap to pull into that lane and get moving again. I believe there are numerous cases that tested this argument and the decision falls in favour of the driver in these circumstances.

On these grounds I would ask you to please cancel the PCN.



Yours Sincerely
"
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toony616
post Fri, 25 Oct 2019 - 11:54
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the response was

Attached Image


Attached Image


Attached Image


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cp8759
post Fri, 25 Oct 2019 - 18:13
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Well the PCN is flawed as I explained. If you want to pursue this, I can write the appeal for you, though you'll have to abandon your initial contentions about the contravention itself. You have better than even odds, but obviously the full penalty is in play (the discount option is lost if you appeal) and we cannot give you a 100% guarantee of success.

If you want to proceed with an appeal let me know and I'll guide you through the process.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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toony616
post Sun, 27 Oct 2019 - 10:04
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I am willing to give it a go if your willing to write the appeal. Better than evens is better than gambling on betfair. How do you come to those odds? Has this worked with barnet before? And if so, why would it not be a slam dunk? Is it a matter of who reviews the case and their competency?
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hcandersen
post Sun, 27 Oct 2019 - 11:12
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Where is it flawed?

Under the LLA all references to payments are based on date of notice while those to reps are based on service, as here.

..if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28-day period beginning with the date of this notice an increased charge may be payable...


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cp8759
post Sun, 27 Oct 2019 - 18:34
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 27 Oct 2019 - 11:12) *
Where is it flawed?

See post 10# above.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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cp8759
post Sun, 27 Oct 2019 - 18:46
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toony616, register the appeal on the London Tribunals website, and write "full grounds to follow" in the reasons box. The tribunal will give you a case number and in a few days you will be sent a deadline by which you must submit your full appeal wording.

Once you do this Barnet has 7 days to upload the following to the tribunal website:

1) The PCN
2) Your representations
3) The Notice of Rejection.

Most council officers have never heard of this 7 day deadline (to be fair neither have most motorists) so it's likely to be missed, just another thing you'll probably be able to use against the council.

As for the charge certificate date, we know it can work, it's worked before, but to an extent it's down to the adjudicator you get on the day.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 27 Oct 2019 - 20:15
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I've not seen the video but another ground is that the box extends about 3 metres beyond the junction. The regulation in that respect has not been relaxed


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