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NIP 3 Months late & is Camera Out of Calibration
Jay Harris
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:52
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Hi,

I have today received an NIP for an alleged speeding offence.

The date of the speeding offence was 14/07/19. 61 through a 50 (roadworks). Motorway. Gantry camera. I received the NIP dated 11/10/19, today, 12/10/19.

My question is twofold.

This appears to be worth appealing as it is outside the 14 day window. The address on the NIP is correct, there are no issues with a transfer of ownership as I have owned the car for three years. No issues with a change of address as I have been at the current address for over 12 months. This appears worth contesting.

I received another NIP dated 02/10/19, for the same camera, on the same Gantry, on the same motorway, for the alleged offence of 64 through a 50 (roadworks) on 14/08/19, for which, I have now booked a speed awareness course.

I remember, for both alleged offences, the Gantry speed was 60 as I never exceed the speed limit (I have had a clean license for over 5 years) with all the cameras around these days, yet, the proof on speed website has photos which demonstrate the alleged speed, on both the Gantries, at the time of both offences, was 50 MPH.

The calibration document for the camera in question (which covers both offences) states the following:

Radar Calibration 05/10/18 until 04/10/19.

As both these alleged offences were close to the renewal of the calibration date, is it possible that this camera has slipped out of calibration?

If this camera has been re-calibrated as of 04/10/19 is there a way to obtain, not just the re-calibration certificate, but the differential at the point of calibration, to demonstrate the camera was out of whack as the end of its calibration period (04/10/19)?

I have not had any speeding offences in well over five years and now, ONE camera on the motorway, which I pass regularly and I consistently see flashing away, has caught me twice in two months, a short time before it is due to be re-calibrated.

1. Is the latest alleged offence arguable on the basis that it is out of time (14 windows)?
2. Am I able to obtain the new calibration data and the differential data (was it off when they re-calibrated on 104/10/19) from the previous to the new calibration, as this camera appears to be out of calibration at the end of it's calibration period?

This feels off and smells off.

Interested to hear peoples' thoughts on this.

Thank you for your time.
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post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:52
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:04
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Calibration is irrelevant so forget about that, it's pub talk. The camera is presumed to be accurate unless you can show that it was malfunctioning, which I suggest you can't prove one way or the other.

The electronic versions of the 50 and 60 signs can look deceptively similar, especially in bad weather. On the face of it the NIP for the offence from July seems to be out of time, but we also know that PentiP (the police computer system) doesn't allow a NIP to be issued late without a system over-ride, so this is unlikely to happen by accident.

It is possible that the latest NIP might be a reminder, some police forces have been known to send reminders that appear indistinguishable from the first NIP. If the first NIP was lost in the post, the reminder would be indistinguishable from a late first NIP.

You must respond to the section 172 request in any case or you commit a separate more serious offence.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Jay Harris
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:19
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Thank you for the response.

So, if the camera is out of whack, there's no recourse on it as it's almost impossible to prove in the absence of the differential calibration data?

Agreed, the signs can look similar. Something does feel off though, but I suspect there is not way to obtain this data?

The latest NIP does not appear to be a reminder. It pre-dates the later NIP and the new NIP specifically states the date of 14/07/19 and not the later offence date of 14/08/19. Also the speed from the 14/07/19 is 61 and the speed from 14/08/19 is 64.

The first NIP was not lost in the post as it arrived within the 14 days limit, very quickly in fact.

So the next course of action is to admit I was the driver and then when the next stack of paperwork comes through, contest it on the grounds already stated as it appears out-of-time; or I need to object at the NIP stage if that is my intention?

This post has been edited by Jay Harris: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:20
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:37
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What basis do you have to suggest the cameras are not working correctly, other than speculation?

How can you possibly know that the police didn't send you a NIP in July for the offence alleged to have taken place on 14 July? If it was lost in the post, you'd never know.

I suppose you could call them up and ask if this is a reminder, but personally I would recommend you don't query anything until they've sent you a CoFP.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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andy_foster
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:48
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QUOTE (Jay Harris @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:52) *
This appears to be worth appealing as it is outside the 14 day window. The address on the NIP is correct, there are no issues with a transfer of ownership as I have owned the car for three years. No issues with a change of address as I have been at the current address for over 12 months. This appears worth contesting.


What is the date after the DocRef. No. at the bottom of page 2 of your V5C? Are your details (name and address correct/current)?

QUOTE
I received another NIP dated 02/10/19, for the same camera, on the same Gantry, on the same motorway, for the alleged offence of 64 through a 50 (roadworks) on 14/08/19, for which, I have now booked a speed awareness course.



QUOTE (Jay Harris @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 19:19) *
The latest NIP does not appear to be a reminder.


And you know what a reminder looks like?

QUOTE
The first NIP was not lost in the post as it arrived within the 14 days limit, very quickly in fact.


Are you referring to the NIP dated 02/10/19 for the alleged offence on 14/08/19?
If so, do you know how long 14 days are?


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Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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The Slithy Tove
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 14:05
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QUOTE (Jay Harris @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 19:19) *
So, if the camera is out of whack, there's no recourse on it as it's almost impossible to prove in the absence of the differential calibration data?

The thing is, you are suggesting the camera may be more than 20% "out of whack". That would be a pretty big error. (I know the "trigger" for prosecution is 57 in a 50, but you can't say "I can prove I was only doing 54," say, as that is still over the limit.)
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NewJudge
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 14:25
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QUOTE (Jay Harris @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:52) *
As both these alleged offences were close to the renewal of the calibration date, is it possible that this camera has slipped out of calibration?


Why would the device "slip out of calibration"? If you want to show it is inaccurate and so cannot be relied upon the burden rests with you to do so. An expired calibration certificate is unlikely to assist you with that.

Your strongest hope of avoiding a penalty is the late NIP, but as mentioned, you need to be sure of your ground before going down that road.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 17:43
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The calibration interval is set on the basis that it won’t ‘slip out of calibration’ far enough to be an issue before it gets checked again......


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666
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 19:20
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 15:25) *
QUOTE (Jay Harris @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:52) *
As both these alleged offences were close to the renewal of the calibration date, is it possible that this camera has slipped out of calibration?


Why would the device "slip out of calibration"? If you want to show it is inaccurate and so cannot be relied upon the burden rests with you to do so. An expired calibration certificate is unlikely to assist you with that.

And an unexpired certificate is even less likely! it had three months to go ....
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