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Penalty Charge Notice on windscreen for being exactly 10 minutes overdue
usernamenotfound
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 17:50
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As title suggests,

I received a PCN from the council by a ticketing warden today. I was walking up to where my car was parked and with wallet in hand, was literally about to purchase another ticket when i spotted this warden writing the ticket.

I went over and told him that I am in the process of purchasing another ticket, he claimed it was too late to which I said it was only 10 minutes. This argument went on for another 2 minutes until I finally gave in and he signed the ticket off 12 minutes after the overdue time - potentially making matters worse. I believe this is completely unfair and defeats the point of grace periods that allow 10 minutes for whether I purchase another ticket or decide to leave. Any pointers of how to best challenge for appeal to the council regarding this matter?
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post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 17:50
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 18:40
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post all the PCN and council photos it sounds like you may have talked yourself into a penalty


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usernamenotfound
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:14
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photo page 1

https://imgur.com/a/4ZcJhcS


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:16
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QUOTE (usernamenotfound @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:14) *



and the PCN?


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usernamenotfound
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:18
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Apologies, mess up a bit on uploading photos.

Here is another page of photos

https://imgur.com/a/U6cmOLF
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cp8759
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:32
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Post all the council photos.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:34
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QUOTE (usernamenotfound @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:18) *
Apologies, mess up a bit on uploading photos.

Here is another page of photos

https://imgur.com/a/U6cmOLF


Much as we hate Nottingham as one of the worst councils, there is nothing concrete to challenge on. You can explain that you returned within the 10 minute grace period but as the PCN is timed at 12.02 unless the CEO has recorded your conversation I would not hold out hope but they say they usually reoffer the discount so a polite please let me off is no risk


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usernamenotfound
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:32) *
Post all the council photos.



Its the first imgur link. the second one is the PCN ticket itself.

Thank for the reply @PASTMYBEST

I will try my best and follow a similar wording to my first post (unless you feel there is a better way to phrase it)

The council offers two online methods 1. Online Website Form 2. Emailing
These may end up in the same inbox for them but I was thinking possibly trying both to maybe increase chances... I know its unlikely and most likely will just receive 2 declines or 2 passes or maybe even 1 of each! But could be worth a try?

And it does allow me 14 days to appeal and another 14 days discount period once decision is made, so may be worth milking it for a bit?

Let me know your thoughts, thanks.
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cp8759
post Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 21:06
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Just send an online representations, there's no point in sending two, it won't help.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Incandescent
post Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 21:38
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OP, you returned 10 minutes late to your car and say you were going to purchase another parking ticket. Except that you cannot back-time a ticket using the machine, so there will be a time of at least 10 minutes, probably more, when your parking would not be paid for. So a CEO would be correct in issuing a PCN after the 10 minutes grace time expired. And the PCN would cover all of the expired time. The grace period is there to allow somebody to arrive slightly late and drive off without penalty, that's all.
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usernamenotfound
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 18:54
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I have drafted an appeal, is it a bit too much or reasonable to put this through:

I wish to challenge this penalty charge notice, here are the events of that day:
I parked my car on Castle Road and bought a ticket from the meter with expiry time 11:50am of that day.
Upon returning to my car in time, I decided to extend my stay and purchase another ticket. Leaving the previous ticket on the dashboard, I got out and proceeded to the parking meter to purchase another ticket. At the meter I saw a ticket warden approach and stop at my car and aware I left my previous ticket. I walked back and told him that I was just about to buy another ticket, to which he responded that it was too late.
I disputed this, telling him that I was still within 10 minutes of my expiry time and should be allowed to purchase an additional time within this time. I searched online in order to show this to him yet he refused my dispute, stating that this does not apply, and then proceeded to write the ticket.
I find this ticket to be unfair and defeats the purpose of grace periods, of which I am allowed 10 minutes after my expiry time to either drive off or purchase another ticket. I also believe it was the wardens intention to purposely delay the time of the ticket after I pointed this fact out to him.

Therefore, I request to appeal against the charge on this notice as I believe that it has been wrongfully given.

Regards.
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DastardlyDick
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 20:39
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I notice that the payment line is an 08456 number. I'm no telecoms expert, but doesn't that cost more than a "normal" landline?
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usernamenotfound
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 21:21
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I wouldn't know either, does that make any difference to my current predicament?
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:31
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 21:39) *
I notice that the payment line is an 08456 number. I'm no telecoms expert, but doesn't that cost more than a "normal" landline?

Yes, the line is outsourced to Cobalt Telephone Technologies Limited and they charge a 3p per minute service fee. However, I do not at present have irrefutable evidence to show that this financially benefits Nottingham City Council, though I am working on it. I would not risk the discount absent such hard evidence.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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usernamenotfound
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 14:23
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ok for the time being I will post my drafted appeal and see what I get in return

Thanks for the advice so far
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DastardlyDick
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 20:34
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Unless Nottingham have set their CEOs ticket devices differently, it will record the time at which the PCN was started - not when it was printed, so I would appear that the PCN was issued correctly after the Grace Period had expired.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 08:25
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OP, you might think that you've incorporated all that's required to get you off this hook, but in fact close reading suggests your account to be some way off the truth.

GSV shows a machine in close proximity to your car.

You posted:
Upon returning to my car in time, I decided to extend my stay and purchase another ticket. Leaving the previous ticket on the dashboard, I got out and proceeded to the parking meter to purchase another ticket. At the meter I saw a ticket warden approach and stop at my car and aware I left my previous ticket. I walked back and told him that I was just about to buy another ticket, to which he responded that it was too late.

You did not return to your car in time, did you (and by 'in time' I mean before the ticket expired, not during the subsequent 10 minutes), unless of course it took you an inordinate amount of time to decide whether to leave or stay and walk to the nearby meter.

You returned late. No other construction could make sense of what happened.

And if you returned late, then say so. You are trying to build an argument based on a true account and the 10-minute rule, not inventing an account, or giving the impression that you are, to try and suit the situation.

But it's your challenge and your words.

Or if you cannot remember, then say so.

I returned to my car and arrived a couple of minutes late. I knew I had the remainder of the 10-minute rule to decide whether to go or to extend my stay. I decided to stay and went to the meter. I accept that I was in contravention at that time, but the machine was nearby and I could see my car at all times. When I reached the meter....... I decided not to risk eating further into the 10 minutes because the margins were tight, so I returned to my car intending to either leave before the 10 minutes expired or get the CEO's nod to give me time to extend my stay.

Has a different starting place, but whether the subsequent events happened at all or in what order only you know.

Ultimately if your fundamental point is that while you and the the CEO were at the car the 10 minutes had not expired and had you wanted or been instructed to drive away in order to avoid being served with a PCN then you could have done so, then say so clearly.
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