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Right hand turn poor signs
peterwot
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 10:53
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I turned right from Queens Road Peckham to Station entrance and received a PCN. Do not live in the area. On returning to the site I see there is only one sign on the right hand sign side which is immediately after the prohibited turn. Another sign immediately opposite on left hand side. So no advance warning!

Is it worth appealing and do I lose my 14 day discount option?

Many thanks for advice.
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post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 10:53
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stamfordman
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 10:57
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Post the PCN, google street view link of location, and the video if you can.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Put videos on Youtube, Imgur or such like.
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peterwot
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 15:45
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 11:57) *
Post the PCN, google street view link of location, and the video if you can.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Put videos on Youtube, Imgur or such like.


Thank you

Here is link to google maps

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4734258,-0....6384!8i8192

Sign on right hand side is first indication that right hand turn is not allowed. At the time I assume it meant next turn not the one immediately before. I must have been indicating right already and if I had seen last minute sign it could have been dangerous to then carry on.

Cannot work out how to post PCN but code is 50R, sorry!


Peter
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 18:12
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Upload the PCN to a site like imgur.com or imgbb.com and post a link.

Also get the video and post it on youtube or some similar site.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Incandescent
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 19:02
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The signs are badly placed, no doubt about that, but you'd have to convince an adjudicator as the council are only after your money, nothing else.
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peterwot
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 20:18
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 20:02) *
The signs are badly placed, no doubt about that, but you'd have to convince an adjudicator as the council are only after your money, nothing else.



I have had a look at the traffic regulations which seem to suggest "drivers should not be placed in a situation where they might not see the sign before undertaking a manoeuvre at a junction". Here the only sign was immediately after - not before - the banned right hand turn. The ban is likely to have been in place for some time so is it not likely to have been challenged before?

Thank you

Peter
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 21:00
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Until you show us the PCN and the video, we're just guessing.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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peterwot
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 18:12
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I am technically challenged so unable to load PCN etc as suggested.

Decided to lodge appeal as follows:

<< I turned right from Queens Road Peckham to Asylum Road and received a PCN which was my first from TFL. Do not live in the area but on reviewing google maps

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4734258,-0....6384!8i8192

there is only one sign on the right hand sign side which is immediately after the prohibited turn. There is another sign immediately opposite on left hand side. The traffic regulations state "drivers should not be placed in a situation where they might not see the sign before undertaking a manoeuvre at a junction". Here the only sign was immediately after - not before - the banned right hand turn. Also, you cannot contravene a sign before you have passed it.

At the time I would have assumed it meant the next turn right further down Queens Road not the one immediately before. I must have been indicating right already and there was a space for cars to turn right.

Please let me know how many PCNs have been issued for this particular right hand turn and how many appeals have been made and how many were granted at first and second review stage.

Please also confirm that my PCN is frozen and in the (hopefully unlikely) case of my appeal being rejected that I still have the option of paying the discounted rate.

Thank you >>

I will post the outcome when I hear!


Peter


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cp8759
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 09:58
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I suggest you get a friend or family member to help you with the technical side. When you get the rejection letter, you're going to have to upload it anyway (we can't use a transcript).


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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peterwot
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:27
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TFL rejected my appeal saying the the no right turn sign complied with regulations and added that there were carriageway signs informing drivers can only drive ahead.

Double checked yesterday and there are no warning carriageway signs.

The only signs (one on each side of the road) are placed immediately after the turning and not before. I intend to appeal to the Tribunal arguing that an offence cannot take place until the sign has been passed - I simply assumed that it referred to the next right turn.

I also asked for data about number of PCNs issued at the junction, successful appeals etc. Phoned yesterday and was told information would be posted to me the day before my 14 day discount ends!

Any comments most welcomed, thank you.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:49
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Well, if you're intending to take them to London Tribunals, the discount is irrelevant.
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:34
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If you can't show us any of the evidence (neither yours nor TFL's), there's not much we can say and speculating would be pointless. I can only reiterate that if you want any meaningful help, you need to get someone technically minded to help you upload all the evidence so we can take a look.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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peterwot
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 20:56
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A decision whether to go to London Tribunals depends on my FOI request on number challenged etc. Must have been challenged before as signage is inadequate and not legal. TFL have that information but are delaying providing it in the hope maybe I will give up and pay discounted rate.

I will try and get some pics organised

Thank you
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cp8759
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 15:15
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FOI requests and PCNs are dealt with by different people in different teams and, indeed, different offices based in different parts of the county. The idea that the FOI team are in communication with the PCN team is misconceived, nobody is intentionally holding back anything. If you put this sort of argument to the tribunal, you won't be doing yourself any favours because you have no evidence, just speculation on your part. This might make the adjudicator think that you're just clutching at straws.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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peterwot
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 16:28
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I have tried hard without success to load a image of the right hand turn which I argue is poorly signed. I am an observant driver with a clean driving licence and have never received a PCN from TFL before.

My FOI request revealed that 2081 PCNs have been issued at this junction over last nine months. Searching the London Tribunal website suggests only seven have been gone to appeal and none successful.

TFL said there were signs on the carriageway showing no right turn but there are none. The only near side sign is immediately after the turning not before. The mid road hatchings had a small gap suggesting to me at least it was ok to turn right. I assumed the sign refered to the next right hand turn further down the Queens Road.

No one has ever successfully appealed against a PCN here so maybe I should pay the discounted rate whilst I can but I do feel the signs are totally inadequate ad misleading!

thank you for any closing comments.

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