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PCN - Drove off before PCN attached, PCN sent in the post
defcon
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 16:40
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Hi all,

I recently parked on double yellow lines for less than 5 mins while I went inside to grab my phone, I came out to a warden walking towards my car. When I stepped out it looked like he was walking towards my car and I didn't see him taking any photos or writing any details as yet so I got in my car and drove away and a PCN was sent via post. Below is the PCN and the images on the tower hamlets council's website. Any hope?







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post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 16:40
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nextdoor
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 17:19
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QUOTE
Any hope?


None that I can see. You were clearly in contravention (DYL with no loading at any time)and the postal pcn was deemed served within the 28 day limit.
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Incandescent
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 19:26
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QUOTE (nextdoor @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 18:19) *
QUOTE
Any hope?


None that I can see. You were clearly in contravention (DYL with no loading at any time)and the postal pcn was deemed served within the 28 day limit.

+1
You admit that you chanced your arm, and unfortunately in this case you lost. Best pay the discount. In London vast sums are made from parking penalties, so it pays the councils well to flood the streets with CEOs to pick up the smallest transgressions. Anything over about 30 seconds on DYLs is a contravention. Being there for around 5 minutes is a definite contravention so you'd lose if you took them to adjudication, and then have to pay the full PCN penalty of £130.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 19:31
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Hold on a mo. That does not look like a reg 9 PCN (served on the vehicle or handed to driver) rather a reg 10 (by post) but something is missing post the rest of it so we can check


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defcon
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 00:19
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 20:31) *
Hold on a mo. That does not look like a reg 9 PCN (served on the vehicle or handed to driver) rather a reg 10 (by post) but something is missing post the rest of it so we can check



There are a few other pages but perhaps not worthwhile posting, if the images can prove the contravention occurred then I'd rather pay the discounted price than to take it further.

Thanks for the help all.

This post has been edited by defcon: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 00:20
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Mr Mustard
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 07:50
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Don’t be hasty. We have a week to play with. Please post up the other pages as they often contain fatal errors.


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defcon
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 11:42
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biggrin.gif You're right, no haste:






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Mr Mustard
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 21:42
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There appears to be a fatal flaw in that the right to make representations under Regulation 4(h) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 has not been communicated to you. Correction: Sorry. I think I copied & pasted from something else. I did of course mean The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 and The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007

It states 'in a case where a penalty charge notice was served by post on the basis that a civil enforcement officer was prevented by some person from fixing it to the vehicle concerned or handing it to the owner or person in charge of the vehicle, that no civil enforcement officer was so prevented'.

Also, the PCN does not contain the information at para 2(h) of the Schedule to the above stated Regulations which sets out why the PCN is being served by post, in short, either that the vehicle drove away or that some person prevented service of a PCN at the scene.

That is two procedural improprieties which should lead to a win at the tribunal although that representation has to be made to the council first of all.

(Councils often get Reg 10 PCNs wrong. I think they modelled this one on the Notice to Owner and forgot to make the necessary changes.)

This post has been edited by Mr Mustard: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 08:36


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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Neil B
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 22:53
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edit.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 18:04


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 07:49
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?

OP, providing you have posted all pages then the PCN is invalid and IMO you would win at adjudication on this point.

Mr M's point is also a signpost to the superior failing on their part....the legal basis on which the postal PCN was served. This must be included in the PCN, but isn't!
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Incandescent
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 08:11
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Looks like the people at Tower Hamlets are on the pop or something to smoke ! The legislation for drive-aways is very clear, yet they have ignored it. This the PCN is a complete nullity and I cannot see how any adjudicator can refuse an appeal.
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defcon
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 11:52
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I can confirm that the pages I posted are all I received, I'll reject their proposed contravention on the basis of procedural improprieties and I'll post their response.
This is a draft of my initial response to the PCN:
------------------------------
I am challenging the PCN sent via post for the following reason:

Procedural impropriety:

The right to make representations under Regulation 4h of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 and The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 has not been stated in the PCN that was posted to me, namely:

(ii)that it is being so served, because a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice by affixing it to the vehicle or giving it to the person in charge of the vehicle but was prevented from doing so by some person; or .

(iii)that it is being so served because a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge notice for service in accordance with regulation 9, but the vehicle was driven away from the place in which it was stationary before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9


This constitutes a Procedural impropriety therefore the PCN must be cancelled.

This post has been edited by defcon: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 13:51
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 16:46
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Revised draft:

------------------------------
I am challenging the PCN sent via post for the following reasons:

The schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 provides at paragraph 2(h) that a regulation 10 PCN must state:

"that the penalty charge notice is being served by post for whichever of the following reasons applies—

(i) that the penalty charge notice is being served by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device;

(ii) that it is being so served, because a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice by affixing it to the vehicle or giving it to the person in charge of the vehicle but was prevented from doing so by some person; or

(iii) that it is being so served because a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge notice for service in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A, but the vehicle was driven away from the place in which it was stationary before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A.
"

Nothing on the regulation 10 PCN served by the council specifies on which of the three grounds above the PCN has been served by post, this is a procedural impropriety.

Furthermore, the PCN does not convey the right to make representations under Regulation 4(4)(h) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2000, namely that:

in a case where a penalty charge notice was served by post on the basis that a civil enforcement officer was prevented by some person from fixing it to the vehicle concerned or handing it to the owner or person in charge of the vehicle, that no civil enforcement officer was so prevented

The Regulation 10 PCN served by the council complies with neither of these requirements, in light of these two procedural improprieties the PCN must be cancelled.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 16:47


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Mr Mustard
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 17:28
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+1


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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defcon
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 20:28
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 17:46) *
Revised draft:

------------------------------
I am challenging the PCN sent via post for the following reasons:

The schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 provides at paragraph 2(h) that a regulation 10 PCN must state:

"that the penalty charge notice is being served by post for whichever of the following reasons applies—

(i) that the penalty charge notice is being served by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device;

(ii) that it is being so served, because a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice by affixing it to the vehicle or giving it to the person in charge of the vehicle but was prevented from doing so by some person; or

(iii) that it is being so served because a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge notice for service in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A, but the vehicle was driven away from the place in which it was stationary before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A.
"

Nothing on the regulation 10 PCN served by the council specifies on which of the three grounds above the PCN has been served by post, this is a procedural impropriety.

Furthermore, the PCN does not convey the right to make representations under Regulation 4(4)(h) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2000, namely that:

in a case where a penalty charge notice was served by post on the basis that a civil enforcement officer was prevented by some person from fixing it to the vehicle concerned or handing it to the owner or person in charge of the vehicle, that no civil enforcement officer was so prevented

The Regulation 10 PCN served by the council complies with neither of these requirements, in light of these two procedural improprieties the PCN must be cancelled.



Looks great, thanks a million! - I'll send this across to them and post their reply.
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