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Lost PCN appeal
desiredusername
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 09:15
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Lost my PCN appeal. got a letter saying I was parked in front of house 62 even though the bay is located halfway between 60 and 62. between 62-70 theres 4 bays, sign states 3 bays... anything else I can do ?

contravention: 21

My challenge: https://gyazo.com/239a8e12131127afdfafd90fcb1af270
councils response: https://gyazo.com/1317d3dc6b6241900cd29f6ea68b6c42
GSV: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3956785,-...6384!8i8192

Council pictures: https://gyazo.com/351d43ed8b3cef2c30b6a9cb87bd1ce6
https://gyazo.com/a6526454969c72f38533dfa6cb5a2341
https://gyazo.com/558276e2e62055b2a8ffdd6ff4a21a13
https://gyazo.com/422f5df7b62a893d9bdd2a439704fdea

This post has been edited by desiredusername: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:11
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post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 09:15
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John U.K.
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 10:05
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QUOTE
anything else I can do ?


I assume this was not an 'appeal' [to the tribunal] but either a challenge to the PCN or formal representation against an NtO - which?

For best advice:
Please post up here copies (not transcripts) of
both sides of the PCN,
your challenge,
the Council's response.
Redact personal details(name, address, ref.mark)
Leave in all dates and times, location, contravention details.

Do not attach (not enopugh space in the forum), but use external site sunch as imgur or ibb and post BBcodes or links.

Also post a GSV link to the location.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 10:06
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cp8759
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 10:48
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Also post up all the council's photos of the contravention, these will be on the council website.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 10:58
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Presumably this:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=fi...amp;pid=1510519

OP didn't bother posting stuff.
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desiredusername
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:03
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:58) *
Presumably this:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=fi...amp;pid=1510519

OP didn't bother posting stuff.


It was this I didn't want to post the pictures and thought I couldve won to be fair but here we are :/
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:07
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I do not think the sign meets the requirements of the authorisation, it requires the location

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3866.pdf


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3956785,-...6384!8i8192


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desiredusername
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 08:22
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Any advice? Or do i just pay up
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 08:39
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We have another "from - to" on the suspension sign. IMO the 24th is not inclusive and therefore there is no contravention.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 10:19
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IMO, 24th is included.

In simple terms, how would you express the alphabet?

From A to Z.

You couldn't exclude Z!

Anyway, this is not the point.

The council suspended 3 bays in a parking place sub-divided into 5 separate bays, none of which align exactly or substantially with property numbers. I parked in the first bay whose markings commence part way along the frontage of no. 60 and terminate partway along the frontage of no.62. I looked at the sign, saw the number of bays and could not reconcile the written description with the road markings and number of bays, indeed they cannot be reconciled.

I assumed that the bay in which I was parked was not included within the suspended area and I still maintain that it could not be if the area of '3 bays' was correct.

Either the area described using property numbers or the number of bays was incorrect.

Given this lack of clarity, my assumption that the first bay was excluded is not only reasonable, it is logical.

The authority cannot simply ignore the contradictions within the sign - it is a moot point what would have happened if I had parked in the last bay, would the authority similarly have insisted that this was included thereby at a stroke and without lawful authority creating a 5-bay suspended area?

The PCN must be cancelled.
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desiredusername
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 10:31
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 11:19) *
IMO, 24th is included.

In simple terms, how would you express the alphabet?

From A to Z.

You couldn't exclude Z!

Anyway, this is not the point.

The council suspended 3 bays in a parking place sub-divided into 5 separate bays, none of which align exactly or substantially with property numbers. I parked in the first bay whose markings commence part way along the frontage of no. 60 and terminate partway along the frontage of no.62. I looked at the sign, saw the number of bays and could not reconcile the written description with the road markings and number of bays, indeed they cannot be reconciled.

I assumed that the bay in which I was parked was not included within the suspended area and I still maintain that it could not be if the area of '3 bays' was correct.

Either the area described using property numbers or the number of bays was incorrect.

Given this lack of clarity, my assumption that the first bay was excluded is not only reasonable, it is logical.

The authority cannot simply ignore the contradictions within the sign - it is a moot point what would have happened if I had parked in the last bay, would the authority similarly have insisted that this was included thereby at a stroke and without lawful authority creating a 5-bay suspended area?

The PCN must be cancelled.


i was parked in the second bay with further 3 bays and 1 bay behind me. from 62-70 is four bays all together but I argued this case with the council and they said no you were parked in front of number 62 therefore it stands
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 11:39
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@hca

Semantics dear boy, although I like your example.

If I journey from London to Brighton--Brighton isn't actually included.

I'll stick by my opinion that the suspension ended 23rd at 24.00 hours.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 07:42
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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 22:16
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I think realistically it could go either way at adjudication.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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desiredusername
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 09:12
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 23:16) *
I think realistically it could go either way at adjudication.

I mean they could've said 62-68 if they wanted the 3 bays suspended where I had parked and how would I proceed to next step do I pay the fine and then take it to tribunal?

This post has been edited by desiredusername: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 09:13
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Incandescent
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 09:21
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If you pay the penalty the matter is closed. They will not issue a Notice to Owner, and it is only when reps against an NtO have been rejected that one can appeal to the adjudicators.
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desiredusername
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 09:45
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 10:21) *
If you pay the penalty the matter is closed. They will not issue a Notice to Owner, and it is only when reps against an NtO have been rejected that one can appeal to the adjudicators.


sorry this is my first time do you have a link where I can read about the process?
So i've got a PCN then I challenged it with the council and got rejected. Now I should wait till the NTO is issued to take it up with environment and traffic adjudicators on the londontribunals.gov.uk website?
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spaceman
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 14:15
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No, your appeal to the adjudicator is against the issue of a Notice of Rejection by the enforcement authority.

They will serve this on you if they do not accept your formal representations made in response to the NtO.

If they do this, you can appeal to the adjudicator.

This post has been edited by spaceman: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 14:16
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Mr Mustard
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 16:52
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https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/t...appeal-process/


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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