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PCN - Temple Mill Lane, Is there a time-limit for this to be enforceable?
FrustratedGamer
post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 21:54
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Hi All,

I have a lease vehicle, and the lease company were first sent a PCN from Newham Council on the 11th of July, about an alleged offence (failing to comply with a no entry restriction) on Temple Mill Lane. The date of the alleged offence is the 2nd of July. The lease company wrote back to them on the 16th of July, giving them my details and authorising them to contact me directly. I heard nothing further on this until last week, when I received a PCN dated the 3rd of September with the usual 28 days to pay, reduced to 50% if paid within 14 days etc.

Here's the thing though, my understanding is that a PCN must be issued within either 14 or 28 days (unsure which), and even allowing for the the delay between the alleged offence and the date they first received my details, are they not out of time? If I am correct and they are, can anyone please advise on how to proceed with this?
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post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 21:54
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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 00:30
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QUOTE (FrustratedGamer @ Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 22:54) *
are they not out of time?

Probably not.
What direction were you travelling?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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FrustratedGamer
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 07:24
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I’m not sure, as I wasn’t in the car at the time
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hcandersen
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 07:57
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Let's not get into the contravention.

OP, you must find out from the lease company the date of issue of the Notice of Acceptance of their representations from the council which would have come in the form of a letter.

The clock starts from that date.
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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 10:20
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QUOTE (FrustratedGamer @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 08:24) *
I’m not sure, as I wasn’t in the car at the time

So post up the PCN and council images.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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FrustratedGamer
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:15
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 08:57) *
Let's not get into the contravention.

OP, you must find out from the lease company the date of issue of the Notice of Acceptance of their representations from the council which would have come in the form of a letter.

The clock starts from that date.

I’ve just spoken to them. They confirmed that they received the PCN on the 15th of July (I incorrectly said 11th earlier) for the alleged offence dated the 2nd. They contacted Newham on the 16th to give them my details, and have received no further correspondence from them since then.

In such a scenario, when does the clock then start?

This post has been edited by FrustratedGamer: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:16
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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:24
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QUOTE (FrustratedGamer @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:15) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 08:57) *
Let's not get into the contravention.

OP, you must find out from the lease company the date of issue of the Notice of Acceptance of their representations from the council which would have come in the form of a letter.

The clock starts from that date.

I’ve just spoken to them. They confirmed that they received the PCN on the 15th of July (I incorrectly said 11th earlier) for the alleged offence dated the 2nd. They contacted Newham on the 16th to give them my details, and have received no further correspondence from them since then.

In such a scenario, when does the clock then start?

He explained?
The date the original PCN was cancelled.
So as you don't know when that was you would include the question in representations.

Still waiting for PCN, pics, vid.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:23


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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FrustratedGamer
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 11:48
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:24) *
QUOTE (FrustratedGamer @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:15) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 08:57) *
Let's not get into the contravention.

OP, you must find out from the lease company the date of issue of the Notice of Acceptance of their representations from the council which would have come in the form of a letter.

The clock starts from that date.

I’ve just spoken to them. They confirmed that they received the PCN on the 15th of July (I incorrectly said 11th earlier) for the alleged offence dated the 2nd. They contacted Newham on the 16th to give them my details, and have received no further correspondence from them since then.

In such a scenario, when does the clock then start?

He explained?
The date the original PCN was cancelled.
So as you don't know when that was you would include the question in representations.

Still waiting for PCN, pics, vid.


He also suggested not to get into the specifics of the alleged contravention for now. In any event, I’m at work now and won’t have those to hand until I get home later.
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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:24
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QUOTE (FrustratedGamer @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:48) *
He also suggested not to get into the specifics of the alleged contravention for now.

Yeah: We haven't quite got around to electing him president just yet. biggrin.gif


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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FrustratedGamer
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 23:45
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Ok here you are:





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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 23:52
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Ah.
Not a good chance from that side, sorry.
Can't remember a win.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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FrustratedGamer
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 07:46
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Ok so how about the length of time it took them to issue me with the PCN? I make it 7 weeks from when the lease company responded.
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Gert
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 09:05
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The LA has 56 days from date of receipt of the reps from the registered keeper. They then have another 28 days within which to serve a fresh PCN on the new keeper where liability has been transferred. So the date of issue of your PCN form, if within 56 days of the date the hire company say they told the LA, immediately shows if it is a procedural impropriety or not.
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FrustratedGamer
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 09:57
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QUOTE (Gert @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 10:05) *
The LA has 56 days from date of receipt of the reps from the registered keeper. They then have another 28 days within which to serve a fresh PCN on the new keeper where liability has been transferred. So the date of issue of your PCN form, if within 56 days of the date the hire company say they told the LA, immediately shows if it is a procedural impropriety or not.

Thanks. Not to doubt you, but I seem to have read conflicting advice on this - can you point me to where I can verify this?
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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 12:59
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QUOTE (FrustratedGamer @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 10:57) *
Thanks. Not to doubt you, but I seem to have read conflicting advice on this - can you point me to where I can verify this?

No, he can't because it is rubbish.
There is no statutory time limit in which councils must respond to reps (for moving traffic).

--
Newham generally re-offer the discount so it doesn't hurt you to make reps as-

So sorry, big mistake, learnt now and won't do it again.

Then politely query the delay in reaching you.
That you understand a PCN first went to the lease co ----- and ask the date that was cancelled.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 13:00


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 13:51
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Yeah: We haven't quite got around to electing him president just yet.


I have no ambitions in that direction rolleyes.gif

But the fact remains that until the owner's representations are accepted, and this can only happen in writing, their PCN is extant and another may not lawfully be issued.

Grounds for OP in absence of proof by the authority that they have cancelled the owner's PCN: penalty exceeded the amount ....circumstances of the case.

Nowt to do with the contravention!
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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 14:25
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 14:51) *
Nowt to do with the contravention!

At that time, in terms of realistically defeating the PCN, highly relevant: Cases have won travelling
East to West.
Sadly not the case here.
But of far greater potential than the slim chance the PCN is late.
I'll revise my -
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 01:30) *
Probably not.

to - Almost certainly not.
But, as I said, worth checking.

As for the lease co, I'm not convinced they understood the question. Either that or the PCN reached
gamer before a NoA has yet to filter through lease co admin; most likely dated between 30/8 and 3/9.

Gamer - ask them again?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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hcandersen
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 14:29
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How can the PCN be late, evidentially the first PCN hasn't been cancelled therefore the OP's PCN is premature and void.

But whoever at the lease company might be wrong.

OP, fact finding must be conducted in writing.
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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 14:47
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 15:29) *
But whoever at the lease company might be wrong.

Or, as I said, might just not have seen the NoA yet.

Believe me I hope you're right.
I might just have to dig out my rice paper hat (if I haven't already had to eat it; I can't recall)
but fairly confident it will be going back in the cupboard.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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FrustratedGamer
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 23:44
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When I spoke to the lease company yesterday, as advised on here, I specifically asked if the council had in any way acknowledged receipt, and they were adamant that they hadn't. I can request that again in writing, but I'd imagine that more than enough time would have passed now for any acknowledgement to have made its way through even the admin chain by now. On that basis, I'm pretty certain none was sent.

Which of the ways suggested is best to approach this from here?
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