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No ticket, but a broken ticket machine
mancunian
post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 09:46
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This weekend I parked in the Hollingworth Lake Visitors centre car park (http://www.rochdale.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-transport/Pages/hollingworth-lake-country-park-car-park.aspx). Although it says the car park doesn't take card it does.

I went with my card but the machine that takes card was out of order. Without any cash on me I decided to take a picture of the display showing the error both when I arrived and again when I returned to prove it wasn't working. There is a second machine that was working but only took coins which I did not have. There was no other means of getting money to pay for it.

Even though they didn't have the resource to fix the machine, they did have resource to issue me a ticket. I challenged this and they rejected the challenge, stating that there was one machine operational.

Is there any way this appeal can work? I get their point, but would have happily paid if the machine that took card actually worked.
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post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 09:46
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cp8759
post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 14:23
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You might have a viable appeal, but first you musut show us:

1) The PCN, both sides in full
2) All the council pictures, these will bee on the council website in most cases
3) Your representations
4) Their response
5) If not included in the council photos, a photo of the terms & conditions board within the car park

You won't have enough space to host the images on here so you'll have to use an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com, please don't use tinypic or photobucket.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mancunian
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 10:39
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Thanks for this. I have uploaded 4 images (2 of the PCN, my challenge, then their response and the terms): https://imgur.com/a/4TwtTfH

The last image shows the terms which I can't even read.

Generally if someone can't offer the necessary means of payment they promise at the usual time of operation it is their responsibility to fix it or accept a challenge like this. I don't understand that it's up to me to drive away, find a cash machine, then find a shop willing to provide change all because a card payment isn't accepted.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 15:23) *
You might have a viable appeal, but first you musut show us:

1) The PCN, both sides in full
2) All the council pictures, these will bee on the council website in most cases
3) Your representations
4) Their response
5) If not included in the council photos, a photo of the terms & conditions board within the car park

You won't have enough space to host the images on here so you'll have to use an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com, please don't use tinypic or photobucket.

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cp8759
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 19:28
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You need to get the Traffic Management Order for the car park.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mancunian
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 19:45
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I see this page: http://www.rochdale.gov.uk/parking-roads-a...ion-orders.aspx

I have to submit this within this time for this reason? I would have assumed there would have been steps before that?

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 20:28) *
You need to get the Traffic Management Order for the car park.

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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 17:19
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It's here https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...chdale/RE07.pdf

It's quite useful because it says nothing about the method of payment, nor does it say that if one payment method is not available you must make payment by some other method or park elsewhere. On that basis, I would carry on and wait for the Notice to Owner.

The council's stance is nonsense because imagine the opposite: what if you had cash but the coin slot wasn't working and you didn't have a bank card? What if you're one of the million of people who don't have a bank card of any type?

Anyway, can you show us the photo of the machine you took at the time?

Also, check your V5C and confirm the address is up to date. Don't assume, physically get it out and check.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mancunian
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 10:03
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Thanks for this. This is useful. It's a new car so V5C is definitely correct. I called Rochdale Council and they told me I could respond to that rejection if I wanted to so will do that first and see what they respond with based on your information.

FYI here are the images of the machine that didn't work: https://imgur.com/a/eNVsTBJ

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 18:19) *
It's here https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...chdale/RE07.pdf

It's quite useful because it says nothing about the method of payment, nor does it say that if one payment method is not available you must make payment by some other method or park elsewhere. On that basis, I would carry on and wait for the Notice to Owner.

The council's stance is nonsense because imagine the opposite: what if you had cash but the coin slot wasn't working and you didn't have a bank card? What if you're one of the million of people who don't have a bank card of any type?

Anyway, can you show us the photo of the machine you took at the time?

Also, check your V5C and confirm the address is up to date. Don't assume, physically get it out and check.

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cp8759
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 19:53
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Do you have a picture of the other machine, to illustrate the point that it doesn't take card?

If not, it might be an idea to get one.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 10:06
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As regards the contravention, I'm not buying in to this absolutist approach because I think that at adjudication much would depend on the contextual facts.

Although it says the car park doesn't take card it does.

So the OP clearly knows the car park.

OK, so would an argument based on not having any cash fly? Who knows, we don't know the applicable tariffs. If, for example, one could park for a reasonable period for £0.3, £0.5, £2 then no-one in the party having that amount of cash might not convince an adjudicator. Similarly, there appear to be several retail outlets around the lake so no need for everyone to leave the car park to get change.

The OP's argument seems to be that no cash was carried to pay for even the shortest tariff.

I need more info before I can buy into this line.

And as for: Generally if someone can't offer the necessary means of payment they promise at the usual time of operation it is their responsibility to fix it or accept a challenge like this.

Indicative of the views of the average motorist caught out for the first time or something else?

OP, the tariffs pl and which applied to your planned stay?
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mancunian
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 10:30
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No I don't but do remember it was an old one with only coins being accepted

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 20:53) *
Do you have a picture of the other machine, to illustrate the point that it doesn't take card?

If not, it might be an idea to get one.



I drove to the specific car park - never been there or its surroundings - and didn't take cash. I generally never carry cash on me and pay for everything by card/contactless. I didn't research into the car park before going there so didn't know anything about it, but I haven't been to a car park that only accepts cash in some time. Generally there is card payment, or instructions on how to pay online/via an app/over the phone which there was none. The fact that the value of the car park tariff is low is irrelevant.

I think my view is correct - I have not been to a car park that offers a limited offering of only one method of payment, and it isn't enough to continue with the penalty.

My query into the forum is to ask whether this is a correct view or in fact that there is no defence whatsoever. It seems by other responses is that there is.



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 11:06) *
As regards the contravention, I'm not buying in to this absolutist approach because I think that at adjudication much would depend on the contextual facts.

Although it says the car park doesn't take card it does.

So the OP clearly knows the car park.

OK, so would an argument based on not having any cash fly? Who knows, we don't know the applicable tariffs. If, for example, one could park for a reasonable period for £0.3, £0.5, £2 then no-one in the party having that amount of cash might not convince an adjudicator. Similarly, there appear to be several retail outlets around the lake so no need for everyone to leave the car park to get change.

The OP's argument seems to be that no cash was carried to pay for even the shortest tariff.

I need more info before I can buy into this line.

And as for: Generally if someone can't offer the necessary means of payment they promise at the usual time of operation it is their responsibility to fix it or accept a challenge like this.

Indicative of the views of the average motorist caught out for the first time or something else?

OP, the tariffs pl and which applied to your planned stay?

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hcandersen
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 11:23
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Well they've rejected your argument once, so

I have not been to a car park that offers a limited offering of only one method of payment, and it isn't enough to continue with the penalty.

would have to continue with the NTO if you're the owner.


Anyway, only offering one method of payment...like only offering cash payments like 99.9% of on and off-street machines!

Such an approach would not only not fly, it would bomb. You'd need to put it in a much less confrontational manner.

So what you seem to be saying is that:
You didn't know the car park but parked hoping that it would take card payments and then found out it took cards and cash but that the card aspect was not working, or
You knew the car park and was prepared by having the wherewithal in the form of a card.

But you've now said you didn't know.
You could hardly arrange to have collected someone if you didn't even know that it took other than cash and turned up with no cash whatsoever.

As you can see, your account is beginning to unravel.

I suggest the whole truth and see whether we could do anything with it.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 14:03
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mancunian
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 11:32
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Unravelling truth? This isn't an investigation - this is what happened to me and I wasn't aware this forum was for that. It must be hard for you to accept - but I simply don't carry cash around with me as having a card option has been my experience for 99% of machines. It's a different experience to your own, which is why I have mentioned it.

I wanted to address the facts of the car park's payment offering and its lack of acceptable means of paying where a card is offered.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 12:23) *
Well they've rejected your argument once, so

I have not been to a car park that offers a limited offering of only one method of payment, and it isn't enough to continue with the penalty.

would have to continue with the NTO if you're the owner.


Anyway, only offering one method of payment...like only offering cash payments like 99.9% of on and off-street machines!

Such an approach would not only not fly, it would bomb. You'd need to put it in a much less confrontational manner.

So what you seem to be saying is that:
You didn't know the car park but parked hoping that it would take card payments and then found out it took cards and cash but that the card aspect was not working, or
You knew the car park and was prepared by having the wherewithal in the form of a card.

But you've now said you didn't know.
You could hardly arranged to have collected someone if you didn't even know that it took other than cash and turned up with no cash whatsoever.

As you can see, your account is beginning to unravel.

I suggest the whole truth and see whether we could do anything with it.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 14:15
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You miss the point.

Yes, I question accounts because often they lack the necessary candour.

Your experience might be that 99% of machines accept cards. It isn't mine and it is not soundly-based experience, it is simply not the case and does not provide any support to your view that you will not pay any parking charge unless you can pay by card.

Anyway, you presumed that the machines would accept card payments in advance. This was foolish to be honest.

Of course you don't have to carry cash, this could remain in the glove compartment of your car until needed.

FACTS:
One of at least 2 machines offered card paying facilities.
It was not working.
You did not have the wherewithal to pay by alternative means.


I think you would lose at adjudication and that an adjudicator would take the view that you were the architect of your misfortune by failing to carry the wherewithal in any form other than the one you wanted.

But carry on, other saving arguments or procedural improprieties might still arise and save you.

My advice is to take the optimum outcome in your case which I believe is to pay the discount. Our task is to advise to achieve the optimum outcome: not every situation results in a cancelled penalty.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 14:20
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SX4
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 15:25
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It is always best to carry some coins for emergency parking in the glove box .
In my area a major city also in the north even if it is the other side of the Pennines all P&D machines take coins only no cards are accepted as the machines have to be adapted at a substantial cost .
Infact the authority has only just started the pay by phone option in the last few months.
So was there not a phone option to pay in the car park
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 18:07
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QUOTE (mancunian @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 11:30) *
No I don't but do remember it was an old one with only coins being accepted

Don't over-estimate the strength of your case. If there had been no card payment option, it would be no defence to say that you don't carry cash, in that scenario the adjudicator would tell you you shouldn't have parked there.

Your case focuses on the tribunal accepting that if the council offers two payment methods, they should both be available to motorists.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mancunian
post Today, 11:59
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You say " If there had been no card payment option, it would be no defence to say that you don't carry cash, in that scenario the adjudicator would tell you you shouldn't have parked there." - but there WAS a card option, it was merely not available. I'm unsure how carrying cash in my car is a legal requirement for this car park. The fact remains that there was a method of payment that I was willing to pay with but the Council did not allow it to be available.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 19:07) *
QUOTE (mancunian @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 11:30) *
No I don't but do remember it was an old one with only coins being accepted

Don't over-estimate the strength of your case. If there had been no card payment option, it would be no defence to say that you don't carry cash, in that scenario the adjudicator would tell you you shouldn't have parked there.

Your case focuses on the tribunal accepting that if the council offers two payment methods, they should both be available to motorists.



My car was new, I had to coin pocket in there. This isn't a legal requirement. It may be "best" but not required.

You say "Infact the authority has only just started the pay by phone option in the last few months." - this means that there has been card offering in the past few months. Before that is irrelevant surely?



QUOTE (SX4 @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 16:25) *
It is always best to carry some coins for emergency parking in the glove box .
In my area a major city also in the north even if it is the other side of the Pennines all P&D machines take coins only no cards are accepted as the machines have to be adapted at a substantial cost .
Infact the authority has only just started the pay by phone option in the last few months.
So was there not a phone option to pay in the car park

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hcandersen
post Today, 12:22
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No point arguing with us, we're not the ones you have to convince.

I don't think you stand a hope in hell at adjudication even on the facts, but when placed in the context of your attitude to this matter which shines through...l

Yes, it might sound abrupt etc. But as I don't think your argument stands scrutiny then I am obligated to get my message across to you as forcefully as the rules of the forum allow.

I've done this now.
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