PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

[NIP Wizard] 48mph in a 30mph zone
firefly
post Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 16:49
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,712
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
From: ex-Scotland
Member No.: 298



NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2019
Date of the NIP: - 18 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 21 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Location description is accurate
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Second
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - I lease the vehicle from a third party. The NIP was received by the RK within 14 days
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - No complaints about the NIP in hindsight. I thought the limit was 40mph, which of course would still have netted me a NIP. But it was 8.48pm in the evening, and it was a van that got me. Never seen one there before at that time. Hey ho.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Scotland

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    Depending on your circumstances, you may wish to consider completing the form, but returning it unsigned. By doing so there is a risk that you will be convicted under s172, which would attract 6 penalty points and a fine; in most cases this is likely to exceed the penalty for the speeding offence itself.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:49:28 +0000


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 13)
Advertisement
post Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 16:49
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
firefly
post Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 17:11
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,712
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
From: ex-Scotland
Member No.: 298



I'm not sure how many folk are on here from days of yore, but here's a name from the dim-and-distant past come back to seek help... Yes, despite my best efforts of driving sensibly and carefully I find myself (after many years) in need of some assistance, as I'm well out of the loop.

Here's the deal...

48mph in a 30mph zone. I thought it was a 40mph zone, and have been pinged at a higher speed than I thought. No matter, it's done now.

I lease the car from a third party, who received it in good time. They nominated me as per s.172 and I received mine today. The notice has the location, which is accurate, as is the date and the time.

I'm of a mind to go down the road of filling in the s.172 without signing it. Now, I know that's not been possible/advisable in England for some years, but back in my day it was the weapon of choice. Does anyone know if this advice still holds? Are there any recent cases anyone can point me towards?

What's 48mph in a 30mph zone likely to attract in Scotland? Fixed penalty, or can I expect to need to buy shoe polish and iron my shirt for a visit in front of their honours?

Thanks guys.

*EDIT* Sorry, this is Scotland, not England. My original NIP Wizard post went to another forum and now I can't move it.

This post has been edited by firefly: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 17:21


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 19:26
Post #3


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 20,713
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



Hello stranger. How's the leg?

AFAIK unsigned in Scotland still entails months of bluff and bluster and being dragged to court by the PF (for as many diets as they can blag) before finally dropping the case at the start of the actual trial if you maintain your NG plea.

The old advice was to avoid the polis during the period so that they can't verbally s. 172 you. However, case law (Scottish) tells us that there is only a single lawful s. 172 requirement, and any 'reminders' are merely a further opportunity to comply but are not lawful requirements in their own right. The case in question concerned proceedings started outwith the 6 months from the expiration of the original 28 days, but within 6 months of the expiration of one of the reminders.

edit: AFAIK (again) ACPOS apply the ACPO guidelines (albeit that ACPO no longer exist, and I dunno about ACPOS)

This post has been edited by andy_foster: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 19:29


--------------------
Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
firefly
post Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 21:01
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,712
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
From: ex-Scotland
Member No.: 298



QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 20:26) *
Hello stranger. How's the leg?

It doesn't bother me any more at all, cheers Andy! Good to know the old guard are still manning the gates.

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 20:26) *
AFAIK unsigned in Scotland still entails months of bluff and bluster and being dragged to court by the PF (for as many diets as they can blag) before finally dropping the case at the start of the actual trial if you maintain your NG plea.

Interesting that this advice still holds. That's exactly what happened to me up in Tain. I attended court and the Fiscal didn't offer any evidence, dropping the case on the day of trial. I suspect nobody had looked at the case until the morning it was to be heard.

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 20:26) *
The old advice was to avoid the polis during the period so that they can't verbally s. 172 you.

I'm away quite a lot with work these days, so hopefully that shouldn't be too difficult.

I'll hang fire until near the end of my 28 day window and then reply.

Thanks again.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 21:59
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,244
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528




QUOTE
What's 48mph in a 30mph zone likely to attract in Scotland? Fixed penalty, or can I expect to need to buy shoe polish and iron my shirt for a visit in front of their honours?


Certainly FP territory in E&W, probably also in Scotland


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Tue, 10 Sep 2019 - 05:55
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 42,791
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Wellcome back!

As Log’ says a fixed penalty would almost certainly be offered if the driver was named.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
firefly
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 10:05
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,712
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
From: ex-Scotland
Member No.: 298



Hello, poops.

Update. I returned the s172 request on day 26, using recorded delivery. Two days later (!) I get a reply from the camera office stating the following:

'I am in receipt of a driver identification form for which I thank you.

I note however that you have failed to sign it.

Please complete the form overleaf ensuring that you sign it. Thereafter return the form to this office by return of post.

Yours faithfully

(indiscernible scribble)

On behalf of the Chief Constable
'

My intention is to ignore any further correspondence and wait to see what happens. Any thoughts by better-versed posters on here would be most welcome.

This post has been edited by firefly: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 10:08


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 10:41
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 42,791
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



100% predictable response.

I usually suggest resubmitting it close to the end of the period given, still unsigned, in the hope it delays further action for a few days while they get around to processing it.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
firefly
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 18:10
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,712
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
From: ex-Scotland
Member No.: 298



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 11:41) *
I usually suggest resubmitting it close to the end of the period given, still unsigned, in the hope it delays further action for a few days while they get around to processing it.

I'm inclined to not bother and just leave it to run its inevitable course. They've already admitted to being in receipt of a 'driver identification form', so other than potentially delay things by a few days I don't see what can be gained by resubmitting?


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
firefly
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 09:40
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,712
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
From: ex-Scotland
Member No.: 298



I received this morning what is almost certainly an automatic reminder from the police, given that my initial 28 day deadline has passed. The wording of the reminder is interesting.

'As indicated in my earlier correspondence you were required to provide the information, as per the form provided, within the statutory time limit of 28 days. I have to inform you that this period has now elapsed and to date no response has been received within this office. I have provided a duplicate form overleaf for your use should you require it and would ask that you now give this matter your IMMEDIATE attention. You are also required to sign your completed form and return it to the address stated above.

If you do not respond, Police Officers will call to interview you after which you may be reported for consideration of prosecution under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

Chief Constable Iain Livingstone QPM
Police Service of Scotland
'

'...to date no response has been received...' huh.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 09:44
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 30,263
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



I infer “no acceptable [to them] response”. I’m no expert on Scots law but isn’t up to you whether you want to be interviewed, if you’re not under arrest?


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
firefly
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 10:00
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,712
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
From: ex-Scotland
Member No.: 298



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 10:44) *
I infer “no acceptable [to them] response”. I’m no expert on Scots law but isn’t up to you whether you want to be interviewed, if you’re not under arrest?

And, yet, in the previous letter they said 'I am in receipt of a driver identification form for which I thank you'. I'm planning on keeping that up my sleeve, even though I don't think it'll be decisive if it does get to court.

It is my understanding that if a police officer turns up at your door to do a S172 request then there's very little you can do about it. 'I have given all the information required by S172 of the Road Traffic Act and I have nothing more to say' is a potential reply, but I'm not sure this would cut it. I've been out of the loop for so long that I'd need to do some homework on it. Where's jeffreyarcher when you need him?!


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 11:59
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 30,263
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



AFAIK, there is only one s 172 request - you can’t be successfully prosecuted for failing to respond to a reiteration of that request made verbally.


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 13:40
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,811
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Personally I wouldn't engage with the police at all, it seems like a complete waste of time to me. If two Police Scotland officers turned up my only reaction would be to turn the volume up a bit on Netflix until they get bored and leave.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 19th October 2019 - 03:45
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.