PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

NIP correct address, SAC offer letter wrong address by 328 miles, SAC letter arrived after deadline expired
Pegasus144
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:46
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Member No.: 52,772




NIP received, NIP address details correct. Camera van - 57mph in a 50 zone.
NIP returned on-time stating I was the driver. I have had a clean licence for 31 years, I drive up to 35,000 miles year.

Today I received a letter offering me a SAC /Speed Awareness Course. The problem is that the deadline to respond was yesterday.
The address on the letter is wrong, the Town is wrong (328 miles from where I live) & postcode also has a mistake (216 miles away).

My surname is unusual & the first 2 lines of my address are correct so it has eventually found its way to me. The envelope has of notes & tippex on on with suggested locations & towns, It must have been on a long journey!

I am inclined to accept the SAC except the NIP stated I was travelling 'Southbound' when in-fact I was travelling Northbound.
In addition, The road has been a national speed limit duel carriageway for 25 years, the 50 zone is new. Temporary 50mph signs on folding stands.
On receiving the NIP went back to the location & the 50mph sign has fallen on its side in the long grass (I took an image from my dash cam), beyond the bridge where the camera was placed in a national speed limit sign is in clear view.


I feel accepting a SAC /Speed Awareness Course (if its not too late) would be the safest option.
I do think the ticket is unfair/ incorrect. The address problem has put me in a position that leaves me no time to consider my options.

I would welcome advice please


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 17)
Advertisement
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:46
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:49
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 43,318
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Ring them today, point out the error and ask for an extension.

If it goes to court I can't see the wrong address being of any benefit at all to you, SAC's not being enshrined in law in any way.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:14
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31,876
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:46) *
I am inclined to accept the SAC except the NIP stated I was travelling 'Southbound' when in-fact I was travelling Northbound.

The camera unit are facing one way and capture approaching and receding traffic. It's more of a statement of their enforcement and not necessarily your direction of travel.

You don't appear to have been disadvantaged and you were at the given location (the direction isn't a mandatory piece of information). There are rare occasions where different drivers may have been travelling in opposite directions at similar times but doesn't apply here.

QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:46) *
In addition, The road has been a national speed limit duel carriageway for 25 years, the 50 zone is new. Temporary 50mph signs on folding stands.
On receiving the NIP went back to the location & the 50mph sign has fallen on its side in the long grass (I took an image from my dash cam), beyond the bridge where the camera was placed in a national speed limit sign is in clear view.

First you should check whether the correct TRO is in place. (Depends on the road but probably Highways England - or possibly online if you tell us the road/location)

The fallen sign in itself may not be sufficient to argue the limit was not conveyed but again, it might...

QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:46) *
I do think the ticket is unfair/ incorrect.

But you were speeding? There is significant risk in challenging, not least if the prosecution ask for the full £620 guideline costs in you lost at contested trial.

QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:46) *
The address problem has put me in a position that leaves me no time to consider my options.

As it appears they have messed up the address then they should be receptive to an 'extension'.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:12


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pegasus144
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:21
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Member No.: 52,772



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:49) *
Ring them today, point out the error and ask for an extension.

If it goes to court I can't see the wrong address being of any benefit at all to you, SAC's not being enshrined in law in any way.



I will do that, thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pegasus144
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:48
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Member No.: 52,772



QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 10:14) *
QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:46) *
I am inclined to accept the SAC except the NIP stated I was travelling 'Southbound' when in-fact I was travelling Northbound.

QUOTE
QUOTE
The camera unit are facing one way and capture approaching and receding traffic. It's more of a statement of their enforcement and not necessarily your direction of travel.

You don't appear to have been disadvantaged and you were at the given location (the direction isn't a mandatory piece of information). There are rare occasions where different drivers may have been travelling in opposite directions at similar times but doesn't apply here.


OK, noted thanks
QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:46) *
In addition, The road has been a national speed limit duel carriageway for 25 years, the 50 zone is new. Temporary 50mph signs on folding stands.
On receiving the NIP went back to the location & the 50mph sign has fallen on its side in the long grass (I took an image from my dash cam), beyond the bridge where the camera was placed in a national speed limit sign is in clear view.

QUOTE
[code]First you should check whether the correct TRO is in place. (Depends on the road but probably Highways England - or possibly online if you tell us the road/location)

The fallen sign in itself may not be sufficient to argue the limit was not conveyed but again, it might...

South Wales A467 Nr Tregwilym Flyover

QUOTE
QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:46) *
I do think the ticket is unfair/ incorrect.

[code]But you were speeding? There is significant risk in challenging, not least if the prosecution ask for the full £620 guideline costs in you lost at contested trial.


Who knows, this was now some time ago & I drive on average 30k miles per year & I'm generally careful. The 50 sign wasnt clearly visible but the national speed limit sign beyond it was. I am however inclined to avoid the risk & take a SAC instead.

QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:46) *
The address problem has put me in a position that leaves me no time to consider my options.

As it appears they have messed up the address then they should be receptive to an 'extension'.


Thanks, good advice I'll do that right away.

This post has been edited by Pegasus144: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:49
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pegasus144
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 10:06
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Member No.: 52,772




I am wondering how the address mistake would have affected me if the letter hadn't arrived at my address at all?

Would points be have been applied to my licence without my knowledge due their administrative error?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 10:20
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31,876
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 11:06) *
I am wondering how the address mistake would have affected me if the letter hadn't arrived at my address at all?

Would points be have been applied to my licence without my knowledge due their administrative error?

If it was just a SAC then a CoFP would have followed. (Hopefully to the correct address!)

Ultimately, you could have got a 'summons' and have been convicted without your knowledge if the wrong address persisted. (There are methods to unwind this)

But their administrative error wouldn't give you a defence to the underlying allegation.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 10:20
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 43,318
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



You would have been sent a 'summons' to court, they can't just add points if you don't reply to the offer of a SAC (see my first comment about SAC and the law).


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pegasus144
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 10:42
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Member No.: 52,772



I have just spoken to the camera unit, the operator acknowledged the address was wrong & said I would be sent a new offer with a new 14 day period to respond.
She said that Id have been likely to receive a summons if the letter hadn't found its way to me.

I also asked about the photograph & the direction for travel. I asked her if any signs were visible in the photograph?
She said the photo is of the rear of my car & the only visible sign is a national speed limit sign! She advised me to write-in to her office
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 10:49
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 43,318
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



So you got pinged just before exiting the limit......classic preemptive driving error.

I doubt you'll get any photo now, almost certainly not within 14 days.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 10:59
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31,876
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



With such 'flimsy' signs I'd be checking the relevant order - although I've found this which might cover it?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 12:36
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,320
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



QUOTE
On receiving the NIP went back to the location & the 50mph sign has fallen on its side in the long grass (I took an image from my dash cam),


Was this the first 50mph sign you would have passed? If there were previous signs, that would not help, even if there were no others it would be rather risky to go to court with that defence, the prosecution might say there was no independent evidence about the sign, which you could have just staged while you took the picture, and the case might go either way. With a course available, accepting that is the safer way to go, but you could try writing in to the police enclosing your picture and asking them to drop the case, but making very clear that if they are not prepared to do that you will accept the course.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pegasus144
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 12:57
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Member No.: 52,772



QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 11:59) *
With such 'flimsy' signs I'd be checking the relevant order - although I've found this which might cover it?



Thanks, that looks like the right stretch of road, the end date was a year ago though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 13:16
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31,876
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 13:57) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 11:59) *
With such 'flimsy' signs I'd be checking the relevant order - although I've found this which might cover it?



Thanks, that looks like the right stretch of road, the end date was a year ago though.

I read it from August 2018 for 18 months?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pegasus144
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 13:25
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Member No.: 52,772





QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 14:16) *
QUOTE (Pegasus144 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 13:57) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 11:59) *
With such 'flimsy' signs I'd be checking the relevant order - although I've found this which might cover it?



Thanks, that looks like the right stretch of road, the end date was a year ago though.

I read it from August 2018 for 18 months?



Sorry yes you are right, I read the "Notice effective from 16th August 2018 to 15th September 2018" bit

QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 13:36) *
QUOTE
On receiving the NIP went back to the location & the 50mph sign has fallen on its side in the long grass (I took an image from my dash cam),


Was this the first 50mph sign you would have passed? If there were previous signs, that would not help, even if there were no others it would be rather risky to go to court with that defence, the prosecution might say there was no independent evidence about the sign, which you could have just staged while you took the picture, and the case might go either way. With a course available, accepting that is the safer way to go, but you could try writing in to the police enclosing your picture and asking them to drop the case, but making very clear that if they are not prepared to do that you will accept the course.


The lady I spoke to was suggesting I write a letter in a tone that sounded like 'you should write a letter'. I'll be clear that I am not rejecting the course.

I just looked on Google street view, I noticed is the national speed limit sign is before the bridge where they say the camera was.
The other thing is that the 50mph sign is on its side on street view image too. This is a couple of months before my own dash cam footage - same place only the grass is shorter on the Google image.

The signs in background are Nat speed limit signs just before the bridge.



This post has been edited by Pegasus144: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 13:23
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 14:09
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,126
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



Is the sign in exactly the same position in your pictures ?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 15:29
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 31,876
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



It's a repeater rather than the terminal sign? (Is there one the other side of the road?)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 22:36
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,320
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



If you back as far as the previous roundabout, you find these signs and there is another one, also on its side, before you get to yours. I certainly would not go to court with poor signage as my defence.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 7th December 2019 - 04:58
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.