Wind flipped my ticket |
Wind flipped my ticket |
Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:00
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Member No.: 76,738 |
Standard council pcn for not displaying properly because wind from left ajar window flipped my ticket. Their photos not good enough resolution to show any details.
Anyway an online submitted appeal to council resulted in them replying that the charge was for not displaying properly. Any way around this one? P.S. I did send them a pic of my valid ticket in question Pcn images https://imgur.com/gallery/pDvt2qm This post has been edited by grumpyboy: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:12 |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:00
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:34
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
We need to see a close up phot of this sign (so we can read it)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5725802,-...3312!8i6656 And all the council photos The dates for payment differ on the back of the PCN The front is correct but the back is not truncating the payment period by one day. They also state it is the owners responsibility to challenge the PCn. This is wrong Anyone can pay or challenge a PCN -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:41
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Looks like a mixed up boilerplate response - they say they if you get another in similar circumstance they may not be able to cancel it, implying that maybe they intended to cancel.
If the flipped ticket is visible in their pics their policy is to consider cancelling: "If the motorist produces a Pay & Display parking ticket that was valid at the time the Penalty Charge Notice was issued and the Civil Enforcement Officer confirms that a face down ticket or a ticket that was displayed but concealed in some other way was seen and it is the first contravention of this kind." So I would not give up on this and it may be worth writing back to them before the NTO. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...t5lXHRnaYsP53Hz This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:44 |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:46
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Standard council pcn for not displaying properly because wind from left ajar window flipped my ticket. Their photos not good enough resolution to show any details.
So what are you saying: the ticket was visible on my dashboard and valid as to expiry time but with the reverse side showing or that the ticket was not on the dashboard and not visible and not valid as regards expiry time, or something in between? Pl be clear and accurate. Whether the photos show this is not the point at present, it's what you know to be the facts. And reinstate in the PCN all except personal info, it's vital info for our purposes. And are you the registered keeper? |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:32
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Member No.: 76,738 |
Standard council pcn for not displaying properly because wind from left ajar window flipped my ticket. Their photos not good enough resolution to show any details. So what are you saying: the ticket was visible on my dashboard and valid as to expiry time but with the reverse side showing YES or that the ticket was not on the dashboard and not visible and not valid as regards expiry time, or something in between? Pl be clear and accurate. Whether the photos show this is not the point at present, it's what you know to be the facts. And reinstate in the PCN all except personal info, it's vital info for our purposes. WILLDO And are you the registered keeper? YES |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:47
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Member No.: 76,738 |
Paperwork Images
http://imgur.com/gallery/8VwC7vA |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 15:03
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Let's see the council's pics. Also, what you wrote in your challenge.
You should have been knocking on an open door if the ticket was clearly visible but flipped on the dash, and their letter may be a mix up. |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:07
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Member No.: 76,738 |
https://imgur.com/gallery/pIY1w5G
In my informal challenge I wrote: "The car window was left open a crack because it was a very hot day that day. The ticket was placed the right way up so i can only imagine that a gust of wind had flipped the ticket over on the dash. I enclose a picture of the ticket purchased" Ticket was totally valid possibly because we are not at the representations stage yet as mentioned in your link : https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...t5lXHRnaYsP53Hz they may follow thru with their own discretional guidance at the Representations stage but not at informal challenge stage? This post has been edited by grumpyboy: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:08 |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:52
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I think the fact that you weren't parked in a bay may be held against you. Even if the pay & display ticket had been visible, if the car park board says you must parked in a bay, they could have issued a PCN for being outside a bay. Obviously they can't issue two PCNs so the CEO chose to issue the PCN for code 83, but I can see why the council are not minded to cancel.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 17:55
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
So you made it clear in your reps - not left them to deduce - that the ticket on view was, by virtue of the same serial number, the same as the one you submitted as evidence?
And the ticket showed that you had paid for parking up to *** - we still don't know when the ticket expired - and the time of contravention was 20.21. Therefore the authority accept that you had paid and are pursuing a penalty solely on the basis of non-display. This is not what the law intends. The primary requirement is to pay the parking charge: frankly, display is only required to prove payment. In the good old days before P&D, individual meters were all that was required. If this was England, then IMO the 10-minute rule would apply. |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 19:25
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Member No.: 76,738 |
So you made it clear in your reps - not left them to deduce - that the ticket on view was, by virtue of the same serial number, the same as the one you submitted as evidence? The serial no. is not visible in their photos And the ticket showed that you had paid for parking up to *** - we still don't know when the ticket expired - and the time of contravention was 20.21. Therefore the authority accept that you had paid and are pursuing a penalty solely on the basis of non-display. This is not what the law intends. The primary requirement is to pay the parking charge: frankly, display is only required to prove payment. In the good old days before P&D, individual meters were all that was required. If this was England, then IMO the 10-minute rule would apply. |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 21:00
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The CEO would normally make a note of the serial number, or at least they certainly should. Is there any reason why you can't show us the front of the P&D ticket?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 21:37
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#13
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
We need to see a close up phot of this sign (so we can read it) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5725802,-...3312!8i6656 And all the council photos The dates for payment differ on the back of the PCN The front is correct but the back is not truncating the payment period by one day. They also state it is the owners responsibility to challenge the PCn. This is wrong Anyone can pay or challenge a PCN We may have the basis of a procedural impropriety regarding the driver-owner distinction. The challenge rejection indicates driver responsibility. The core Order relates to driver responsibility:- https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ansea/WJ005.pdf The Act however 5(2) indicates:- "the penalty charge is payable by the person who was the owner of the vehicle involved in the contravention at the material time". The PCN refers to the registered keeper not the owner. As per the DVLA there is a distinction between registered keeper and owner :- http://www.dvla-contact-number.co.uk/the-d...r-of-a-vehicle/ Regardless of the OP's position as one or the other I believe this is something that might provide leverage. In "fluttering ticket cases" discretion is paramount and the Council should provide its policy for the exercise of the discretion so that the OP is aware of it and is assured that it is a policy that is fair and fairly applied. Mick |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:13
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Member No.: 76,738 |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:21
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
It's not your fault that the CEO's pic is not good enough to read the serial number but there must be little doubt that it is an upturned ticket (which you have). Otherwise the CEO would not have taken a picture of it.
As I said, the letter may be a cock up given the sentence on not cancelling again. What I would do is write to them now asking for clarification on the letter and citing the the policy I found for you. Saying cheekily that perhaps they meant to follow policy for a first such flipped ticket, and enclosing it again, saying the CEO's pic is of your ticket but it's a shame it's out of focus. Also, CP raised the point of being out of the parking bay - that isn't the contravention, but were you parked properly in the car park? |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:38
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well we need a readable picture of the car park sign.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 06:59
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Member No.: 76,738 |
Well we need a readable picture of the car park sign. Not local so not possible i am afraid Parked properly? This was the wife's expedition. Say no more. Interesting point... this was a trip to Wales...another country. We are resident in England...another country. How does this play out or is it, to all intents and purposes, the UK? Any precidents on this scenario? This post has been edited by grumpyboy: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 06:59 |
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Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 07:08
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
...and when the ticket expired;
...and a clear photo of the noticeboard Ts and Cs, and... ...the OP's comment on this part of their response: ..correct way up, so that the ..VRM ..can be seen. As we've not seen the ticket and the OP hasn't mentioned it, do you have to enter the VRM when a ticket is purchased? |
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Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:33
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
grumpyboy your reason for not wanting to show us the P&D ticket is what exactly?
England v Wales is irrelevant, the regulations are identical for all practical purposes. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:50
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Member No.: 76,738 |
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