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Wind flipped my ticket
grumpyboy
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:00
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Standard council pcn for not displaying properly because wind from left ajar window flipped my ticket. Their photos not good enough resolution to show any details.
Anyway an online submitted appeal to council resulted in them replying that the charge was for not displaying properly.

Any way around this one?

P.S. I did send them a pic of my valid ticket in question

Pcn images
https://imgur.com/gallery/pDvt2qm

This post has been edited by grumpyboy: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:12
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post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:00
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:34
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We need to see a close up phot of this sign (so we can read it)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5725802,-...3312!8i6656

And all the council photos

The dates for payment differ on the back of the PCN The front is correct but the back is not truncating the payment period by one day. They also state it is the owners responsibility to challenge the PCn. This is wrong Anyone can pay or challenge a PCN


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stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:41
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Looks like a mixed up boilerplate response - they say they if you get another in similar circumstance they may not be able to cancel it, implying that maybe they intended to cancel.

If the flipped ticket is visible in their pics their policy is to consider cancelling:

"If the motorist produces a Pay & Display parking ticket that was valid at the time the Penalty Charge Notice was issued and the Civil Enforcement Officer confirms that a face down ticket or a ticket that was displayed but concealed in some other way was seen and it is the first contravention of this kind."

So I would not give up on this and it may be worth writing back to them before the NTO.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...t5lXHRnaYsP53Hz

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:44
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hcandersen
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:46
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Standard council pcn for not displaying properly because wind from left ajar window flipped my ticket. Their photos not good enough resolution to show any details.

So what are you saying: the ticket was visible on my dashboard and valid as to expiry time but with the reverse side showing or that the ticket was not on the dashboard and not visible and not valid as regards expiry time, or something in between?

Pl be clear and accurate. Whether the photos show this is not the point at present, it's what you know to be the facts.

And reinstate in the PCN all except personal info, it's vital info for our purposes.

And are you the registered keeper?
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grumpyboy
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:46) *
Standard council pcn for not displaying properly because wind from left ajar window flipped my ticket. Their photos not good enough resolution to show any details.

So what are you saying: the ticket was visible on my dashboard and valid as to expiry time but with the reverse side showing YES or that the ticket was not on the dashboard and not visible and not valid as regards expiry time, or something in between?

Pl be clear and accurate. Whether the photos show this is not the point at present, it's what you know to be the facts.

And reinstate in the PCN all except personal info, it's vital info for our purposes. WILLDO

And are you the registered keeper? YES

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grumpyboy
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:47
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Paperwork Images
http://imgur.com/gallery/8VwC7vA
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stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 15:03
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Let's see the council's pics. Also, what you wrote in your challenge.

You should have been knocking on an open door if the ticket was clearly visible but flipped on the dash, and their letter may be a mix up.
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grumpyboy
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:07
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https://imgur.com/gallery/pIY1w5G

In my informal challenge I wrote:
"The car window was left open a crack because it was a very hot day that day. The ticket was placed the right way up so i can only imagine that a gust of wind had flipped the ticket over on the dash. I enclose a picture of the ticket purchased"

Ticket was totally valid


possibly because we are not at the representations stage yet as mentioned in your link :
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...t5lXHRnaYsP53Hz

they may follow thru with their own discretional guidance at the Representations stage but not at informal challenge stage?

This post has been edited by grumpyboy: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:08
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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:52
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I think the fact that you weren't parked in a bay may be held against you. Even if the pay & display ticket had been visible, if the car park board says you must parked in a bay, they could have issued a PCN for being outside a bay. Obviously they can't issue two PCNs so the CEO chose to issue the PCN for code 83, but I can see why the council are not minded to cancel.


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hcandersen
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 17:55
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So you made it clear in your reps - not left them to deduce - that the ticket on view was, by virtue of the same serial number, the same as the one you submitted as evidence?

And the ticket showed that you had paid for parking up to *** - we still don't know when the ticket expired - and the time of contravention was 20.21. Therefore the authority accept that you had paid and are pursuing a penalty solely on the basis of non-display.

This is not what the law intends.

The primary requirement is to pay the parking charge: frankly, display is only required to prove payment. In the good old days before P&D, individual meters were all that was required. If this was England, then IMO the 10-minute rule would apply.

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grumpyboy
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 19:25
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 18:55) *
So you made it clear in your reps - not left them to deduce - that the ticket on view was, by virtue of the same serial number, the same as the one you submitted as evidence? The serial no. is not visible in their photos

And the ticket showed that you had paid for parking up to *** - we still don't know when the ticket expired - and the time of contravention was 20.21. Therefore the authority accept that you had paid and are pursuing a penalty solely on the basis of non-display.

This is not what the law intends.

The primary requirement is to pay the parking charge: frankly, display is only required to prove payment. In the good old days before P&D, individual meters were all that was required. If this was England, then IMO the 10-minute rule would apply.

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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 21:00
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The CEO would normally make a note of the serial number, or at least they certainly should. Is there any reason why you can't show us the front of the P&D ticket?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 21:37
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:34) *
We need to see a close up phot of this sign (so we can read it)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5725802,-...3312!8i6656

And all the council photos

The dates for payment differ on the back of the PCN The front is correct but the back is not truncating the payment period by one day. They also state it is the owners responsibility to challenge the PCn. This is wrong Anyone can pay or challenge a PCN


We may have the basis of a procedural impropriety regarding the driver-owner distinction.
The challenge rejection indicates driver responsibility.

The core Order relates to driver responsibility:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ansea/WJ005.pdf

The Act however 5(2) indicates:- "the penalty charge is payable by the person who was the owner of the vehicle involved in the contravention at the material time".


The PCN refers to the registered keeper not the owner.

As per the DVLA there is a distinction between registered keeper and owner :-

http://www.dvla-contact-number.co.uk/the-d...r-of-a-vehicle/

Regardless of the OP's position as one or the other I believe this is something that might provide leverage.

In "fluttering ticket cases" discretion is paramount and the Council should provide its policy for the exercise of the discretion so that the OP is aware of it and is assured that it is a policy that is fair and fairly applied.

Mick


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grumpyboy
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:13
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:00) *
The CEO would normally make a note of the serial number, or at least they certainly should. Is there any reason why you can't show us the front of the P&D ticket?


There's no point because the CEO did not note it on the slip I posted above.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:21
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It's not your fault that the CEO's pic is not good enough to read the serial number but there must be little doubt that it is an upturned ticket (which you have). Otherwise the CEO would not have taken a picture of it.

As I said, the letter may be a cock up given the sentence on not cancelling again.

What I would do is write to them now asking for clarification on the letter and citing the the policy I found for you. Saying cheekily that perhaps they meant to follow policy for a first such flipped ticket, and enclosing it again, saying the CEO's pic is of your ticket but it's a shame it's out of focus.

Also, CP raised the point of being out of the parking bay - that isn't the contravention, but were you parked properly in the car park?



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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:38
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Well we need a readable picture of the car park sign.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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grumpyboy
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 06:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 23:38) *
Well we need a readable picture of the car park sign.

Not local so not possible i am afraid



Parked properly? This was the wife's expedition. Say no more.



Interesting point...
this was a trip to Wales...another country.

We are resident in England...another country.

How does this play out or is it, to all intents and purposes, the UK? Any precidents on this scenario?

This post has been edited by grumpyboy: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 06:59
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hcandersen
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 07:08
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...and when the ticket expired;
...and a clear photo of the noticeboard Ts and Cs, and...
...the OP's comment on this part of their response:

..correct way up, so that the ..VRM ..can be seen.


As we've not seen the ticket and the OP hasn't mentioned it, do you have to enter the VRM when a ticket is purchased?

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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:33
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grumpyboy your reason for not wanting to show us the P&D ticket is what exactly?

England v Wales is irrelevant, the regulations are identical for all practical purposes.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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grumpyboy
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:33) *
grumpyboy your reason for not wanting to show us the P&D ticket is what exactly?

England v Wales is irrelevant, the regulations are identical for all practical purposes.



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