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speeding ticket received but the driver left the country!?, international Driver offense
zezo
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 12:58
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Hi,

A friend of mine was stupid enough to let another guy drive his car without taking a picture of his DL. The guy was doing a test drive (claiming he would purchase it if he likes it) and he said he got comprehensive insurance and his insurance let him drive another insured car. BUT he did get a speeding ticket! He was driving 37 at 30 road. My friend received the NIP and put the quy name and address to the best of his knowledge ( I mean he is not sure about the quy surname spelling) and sent it over. Now it is getting more complex, the guy was a mature international student and when we asked about him in that address, we learned he left the country!

My friend is so stressed and doesn't know what will happen now? any idea? appreciate any advice
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post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 12:58
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Kickaha
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 13:03
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Get your friend to post on here himself so we can be sure we are getting accurate info.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 13:10
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He has to name the driver, not doing so is a sure fire 6 points.

The issue may be that the Police are concerned that naming an overseas driver may be being seen as a convenient way to dispose of the allegation, they may also ask to see proof of insurance and try for a permitting (and uninsured driver to drive his car) charge.


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zezo
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 13:15
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QUOTE (Kickaha @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:03) *
Get your friend to post on here himself so we can be sure we are getting accurate info.


Thanks for your comment, I am quite new to this so don't know if am quoting it right. My friend is literally next to me and happy to give any more details needed. we were trying to read about the law related and what could happen and I found myself posting here on this website. Thanks

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:10) *
He has to name the driver, not doing so is a sure fire 6 points.

The issue may be that the Police are concerned that naming an overseas driver may be being seen as a convenient way to dispose of the allegation, they may also ask to see proof of insurance and try for a permitting (and uninsured driver to drive his car) charge.


thanks for your reply, do you know what is the "uninsured driver to drive the car" charge?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 13:18
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If a vehicle keeper permits (hence the 'permitting') an uninsured driver to drive their car, they commit an offence, it's seen as the same severity as driving while uninsured yourself (so typically 6 points and a £200 fixed penalty, or if it goes to court circa £500 fine). Never let someone drive your car without SEEING the insurance.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 13:38
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The fixed penalty for driving without insurance is £300 so the fixed penalty for permitting uninsured driving is likely to be the same, together with 6 points.

Unfortunately when it comes to insurance, it's up to you to prove that a valid policy was in force, it's not up to the police to show the vehicle was uninsured. The Rookie is right, never let anyone drive your car without seeding their certificate of insurance and taking a copy.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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zezo
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 13:53
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Thanks guys! appreciate your comments.

Now police will send the NIP to that address and they will receive no reply as the address is empty. what will be next? they will get back the the registered keeper, right?
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:07
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QUOTE (zezo @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:53) *
Thanks guys! appreciate your comments.

Now police will send the NIP to that address and they will receive no reply as the address is empty. what will be next? they will get back the the registered keeper, right?

That is a distinct possibility. Do you have any proof that the foreign friend had actually borrowed the car?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:08
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Very likely.

If he can't provide an 'active' address it is more likely to end in a permitting charge, he needs to get his ducks in a row with whatever evidence he has that
1/ The car was for sale (so likely to be test driven)
2/ The person named is a real person and was in the country at the time
3/ The chances they were actually insured (such as having a car already, if they didn't have a car, how would they be insured.....)

This thread can show the implications of naming people that can't be proven to have existed and been in a position to actually drive the car.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1505766



--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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zezo
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:16
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:07) *
QUOTE (zezo @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:53) *
Thanks guys! appreciate your comments.

Now police will send the NIP to that address and they will receive no reply as the address is empty. what will be next? they will get back the the registered keeper, right?

That is a distinct possibility. Do you have any proof that the foreign friend had actually borrowed the car?


no doc to proof but there was another person witnessing this

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:08) *
Very likely.

If he can't provide an 'active' address it is more likely to end in a permitting charge, he needs to get his ducks in a row with whatever evidence he has that
1/ The car was for sale (so likely to be test driven)
2/ The person named is a real person and was in the country at the time
3/ The chances they were actually insured (such as having a car already, if they didn't have a car, how would they be insured.....)

This thread can show the implications of naming people that can't be proven to have existed and been in a position to actually drive the car.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1505766

thanks, but what do you mean by "permitting charge"? the uninsured driver charge?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:25
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Permitting an uninsured driver to drive a vehicle, aka permitting, yes (as per post #5).


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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progbloke
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:11
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Apropos of nothing in particular, which country does the (presumed) driver come from?

Even if he does have insurance in his own right from his home country, the question is would it allow him to drive other cars third party overseas, especially if he's from outside the EU?
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Jlc
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:28
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He could have had insurance in his own right when in the UK?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:31
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:28) *
He could have had insurance in his own right when in the UK?

Absolutely, he could have used dayinsure or some similar company. If this is the case, there should be no problem in getting confirmation that the policy was in force.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 19:30
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:31) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:28) *
He could have had insurance in his own right when in the UK?

Absolutely, he could have used dayinsure or some similar company. If this is the case, there should be no problem in getting confirmation that the policy was in force.

Without being able to contact the driver?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 10:45
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Especially as it looks like even the name is in doubt...
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cp8759
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 14:34
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 20:30) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:31) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:28) *
He could have had insurance in his own right when in the UK?

Absolutely, he could have used dayinsure or some similar company. If this is the case, there should be no problem in getting confirmation that the policy was in force.

Without being able to contact the driver?

That would make things harder, but still not impossible.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Logician
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 18:32
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QUOTE (progbloke @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:11) *
Apropos of nothing in particular, which country does the (presumed) driver come from? Even if he does have insurance in his own right from his home country, the question is would it allow him to drive other cars third party overseas, especially if he's from outside the EU?


Nothing that would satisfy UK requirements which needs membership of the UK motor insurers bureau



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cp8759
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 19:16
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 19:32) *
QUOTE (progbloke @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:11) *
Apropos of nothing in particular, which country does the (presumed) driver come from? Even if he does have insurance in his own right from his home country, the question is would it allow him to drive other cars third party overseas, especially if he's from outside the EU?


Nothing that would satisfy UK requirements which needs membership of the UK motor insurers bureau

While this is probably true, I don't know that anyone's found the domestic legislation that excepts temporary visitors from that requirement. Without checking the wording we can't be 100% sure on this point.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Logician
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 22:47
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 20:16) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 19:32) *
QUOTE (progbloke @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:11) *
Apropos of nothing in particular, which country does the (presumed) driver come from? Even if he does have insurance in his own right from his home country, the question is would it allow him to drive other cars third party overseas, especially if he's from outside the EU?
Nothing that would satisfy UK requirements which needs membership of the UK motor insurers bureau
While this is probably true, I don't know that anyone's found the domestic legislation that excepts temporary visitors from that requirement. Without checking the wording we can't be 100% sure on this point.


s.145 RTA 1988 deals with it, vehicles normally based in the UK are required to be insured by an authorised insurer, which s.95 of the act defines as a member of the Motor Insurers Bureau (MIB), vehicles normally based in another state are required to be insured according to the law of that state, with certain provisos. So an overseas visitor driving a vehicle based in the UK needs to be insured by a member of the MIB, his own insurance from his home country, which would not be issued by a member of the MIB, would not cover him.



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