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PCN Elizabeth Avenue N1 - Driving during restricted hours
mmn999
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 10:46
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Hi I have just received a PCN from Islington council for driving in Elizabeth Avenue N1 during the restricted hours for school terms, entering from New North Rd turning right.

On this thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...venue&st=20 the initiator had his tickets cancelled but its not clear why.

There are no advance warning signs in New North Rd going North so the issue I was going to appeal on as discussed in the thread referenced is the one of no advance warning before you start the turn, as it is very difficult to make a decision when you only see the restriction signs after you have already decided to turn. Surely having to back out of the turn on a busy road is not safe ?

Interestingly at other sites in Islington with the school days restriction such as Duncan St N1 there ARE advance warning signs on the approach road, so why are there none at the Elizabeth Avenue site ?

Any views very much appreciated.

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post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 10:46
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stamfordman
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 14:20
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I think the other cases have been for the other direction but with no advance signage on New North Road you have even less opportunity to assess the situation given how busy it usually is.

Post the PCN - what date is this? School broke up a while ago.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:10
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This case may offer some help

2190256140

This vehicle on the council's case failed to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone. Upon the appellant raising the issue of signage he commenting upon the amount of signs that are posted at the entrance to this road. There are no less than 7 signs posted at this street's entrance including those informing motorists of this restriction. That to my mind amounts to signage overload. The motorist is expected to read all of this signage on passing it. I cannot see how that can be done noting the plethora of information shown thereon. I am not satisfied for that reason that this restriction is clearly signed and I find that the contravention has not therefore been proved.


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mmn999
post Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 17:24
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Here is a link to the PCN : https://imgur.com/a/2G71n4j

The school broke up on 23rd July, see here http://www.rotherfieldprimaryschool.co.uk/term-dates/

The signs at the entrance to the road are dark outside term. Interestingly though the advance warning signs in Duncan st are yellow boards always showing the restriction, again ill thought out and confusing.
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mmn999
post Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 09:13
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Hi, I thought I might use the following as an appeal :

"I wish to challenge this penalty on the grounds that there is no signage on the approach to the right turn from New North Road into Elizabeth Avenue. The signs for the restriction only become visible after the motorist has started the turn giving very little time to make a decision given that the restriction is time related. There are other signs also at the entrance to Elizabeth Avenue which makes the decision even more confusing.

Also having started the turn and moved to the middle of New North Rd to back out of the turn the motorist has to back into busy road or do a U turn involving potentially a 3 point turn. This is unacceptable and potentially dangerous.

In other parts of Islington such as Duncan St N1 there are yellow warning signs about the restriction before the turns, why are there none on New North Rd ? This is inconsistent, and shows that the roads with restrictions require these signs."

Does that sound OK ?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 09:31
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Looks good to me - short and to the point.
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mmn999
post Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 12:06
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Thanks, will do.

The PCN is is my wife's name as the owner but I was driving as named driver on her insurance. Should I submit the appeal in her name or mine ? If the latter would it confuse/delay things ?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 13:02
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QUOTE (mmn999 @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 13:06) *
Thanks, will do.

The PCN is is my wife's name as the owner but I was driving as named driver on her insurance. Should I submit the appeal in her name or mine ? If the latter would it confuse/delay things ?


As the owner is liable have here sign a letter of authority for you to act on her behalf. They will only respond to her anyway


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mmn999
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 10:35
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Hi all, Islington have failed to get back to me on my appeal and its now over 20 working days since they acknowledged receipt.

Any idea what I should do now ? I was hoping to just forget about it smile.gif

Is there a duty to get back within a certain time or can they just keep me waiting indefinitely ?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 10:39
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There's no set time but 3 months max is what adjudicators consider reasonable.
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mmn999
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 10:44
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They also said they would "notify you by email if we cannot respond within this timescale. " which they haven't.

Is there any comeback available on this kind of incompetency I wonder ?

This post has been edited by mmn999: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 10:46
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stamfordman
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 11:01
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QUOTE (mmn999 @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 11:44) *
They also said they would "notify you by email if we cannot respond within this timescale. " which they haven't.

Is there any comeback available on this kind of incompetency I wonder ?


Yes - vote Labour for public investment
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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 21:49
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QUOTE (mmn999 @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 11:44) *
They also said they would "notify you by email if we cannot respond within this timescale. " which they haven't.

Is there any comeback available on this kind of incompetency I wonder ?

You could make a complaint under the council's complaint procedures, but it would have no impact on the PCN itself.


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mmn999
post Today, 10:13
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Well I've now received a Rejection from the council. All they say is that the signage is "sufficient, compliant and correctly positioned" which I would challenge. I can appeal to the London Tribunal, which I would do on the grounds mentioned above, that the signage is insufficient as there is no prior warning sign before the turn here (whereas there is in other such schemes in Islington).

The appeal application says that the only grounds relevant are that the "contravention did not occur". I presume my grounds for appeal would be within that ?
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stamfordman
post Today, 10:28
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QUOTE (mmn999 @ Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 11:13) *
The appeal application says that the only grounds relevant are that the "contravention did not occur". I presume my grounds for appeal would be within that ?


Yes you can just select that - the adjudicator will consider any grounds you raise.
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mmn999
post Today, 11:39
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Thanks stamfordman.

Is there anything else I should add to my original appeal above in the tribunal appeal ? The issue is a relatively simple one about lack of an advance warning sign and the councils inconsistency in signage in the borough. I could take pictures of the signage in the other school hours zones perhaps ?

It appears in a previous case reported in this forum here http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t128334.html the council gave in before the tribunal (although it not clear in that thread exactly what happened). Is there any other cases of this specific grounds of appeal being heard at tribunal do you know ?


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stamfordman
post Today, 11:42
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You could just register the appeal and confirm an appointment at the tribunal (if you can go - it's in High Holborn) and not upload evidence yet and see if Islington contest. You can then put up stuff if they do.

That's what I just did with a Hackney case. Sadly they did contest and won.
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PASTMYBEST
post Today, 11:44
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Carefully read post 3 then look at the signage with a fresh approach. You missed the relevant sign because there were to many others in situ


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