PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

dvla clamps
markadams
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 05:56
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 69
Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Member No.: 48,200



I am a car trader, i have motor trade insurance, and all vehicles are purchased via main agents, put `in trade` using the yellow slip, and stay in my custody or control until sold.
Being `in trade` as i recall means i dont have to tax insure the car etc. If the car needs moving, or for demonstration i use trade plates.

I can only keep 7 cars at home so i use a couple of private parking areas. I have a friend with a flat in each so use the many many available parking spaces as i dont have premises. Private car par, private land.

So i went to my cars yesterday and the cars had been clamped, clearly reported to dvla. Maybe dvla hadnt checked they were in trade and it stated they had been reported to dvla and clamped. The company that clamped them i believe is NSL and they have a compound in west bromwich.

A quick look on the gov.uk website tells me these cars need to be sorned, but how can i take a sorned car onto the road for a text drive? Or for an mot?

So this morning i need to make some calls and am asking your incredible brains where i stand with this.

i have read this....

https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-...n/motor-traders

It doesnt make good reading especially as i dont have `business premises` which actually means i cant park them at home without SORN, and if i do and their on a test drive im then also comitting anoffence


This post has been edited by markadams: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 06:17
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
7 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 05:56
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Logician
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:32
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,245
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



I think the situation is as follows, but stand to be corrected:

Cars kept on your drive
I do not see any reason why your home cannot also be your business premises, various things would support that, if any registration gives that address, such as your trade plates, if customers come to that address, when you advertise I guess you use a mobile number but it would be better if you gave a landline number at that address and arranged for calls to be diverted to your mobile, if you trade through a company that could be the registered address. That would then bring you within the exceptions for motor traders, as listed.

Cars kept in private parking areas
They are clearly not on your business premises and therefore need to be SORNed. You can take a SORNed vehicle to a pre-booked MoT and for repair if it fails, but you could also use your trade plates, and must use your trade plates for a test drive. You need to be certain that the place they are kept is not a road and to avoid argument is very clearly not a road. A car park is not a road, but if it is clearly signed as a private car park, so much the better.
As the cars that were clamped were not taxed, or on SORN and not displaying trade plates, you are guilty of an offence.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
markadams
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 18:08
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 69
Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Member No.: 48,200



Where may i ask, if i may, where you got your information from
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Foxy01
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 20:00
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 78
Joined: 4 Mar 2016
Member No.: 82,764



Only the cars kept at your 'premises' can be kept 'in trade' and not Sorn'd. The only way to prevent future clamping at the other locations would be to register the cars in your name and then declare Sorn, or fill out a V890 and also send off the V5C by post. As I understand it there is no way to legally trade the way you are trading without running the risk of getting the cars clamped. Short of removing reg plates and covering up chassis number if in a private car park.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 20:33
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 42,829
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (Foxy01 @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 21:00) *
Short of removing reg plates and covering up chassis number if in a private car park.

As removing the reg plates would be illegal in itself that hardly solves the problem of being illegal!

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 20:34


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Foxy01
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 20:54
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 78
Joined: 4 Mar 2016
Member No.: 82,764



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 21:33) *
QUOTE (Foxy01 @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 21:00) *
Short of removing reg plates and covering up chassis number if in a private car park.

As removing the reg plates would be illegal in itself that hardly solves the problem of being illegal!

Is it illegal to remove plates in a private car park?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 21:19
Post #7


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 20,721
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 21:33) *
As removing the reg plates would be illegal in itself that hardly solves the problem of being illegal!


QUOTE (Foxy01 @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 21:54) *
Is it illegal to remove plates in a private car park?


IIRC the legislation creating the requirement/offence is silent as to where it is committed. IMHO this should men that it should be construed restrictively - e.g. only applying on a public road. If it were to have universal application, an offence would be committed if a mechanic in a workshop removed a bumper.


--------------------
Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 23:13
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,245
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



QUOTE (markadams @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 19:08) *
Where may i ask, if i may, where you got your information from


Whether your home is also your place of business is a question of fact, I just suggested ways to evidence that.

Rules on MoT are HERE

When you need to SORN a vehicle is explained HERE



--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
markadams
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 06:25
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 69
Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Member No.: 48,200



logician i was going to say thankyou and you are bang on...

the problem is, to me, that its a private car park, not part of the public highway not council land, so one should be safe, yet one has to SORN the vehicle for it not to be clamped even though its `in trade`. So to say, its not my business premises seems pretty flimsy when it shouldnt be that way.
Surely if its off the road its off the road, its off the highway, private land, not belonging to the highway/council/ etc.
It seems to me theyve made their own laws up here to suit. I just hope they dont clamp it for being on the highway when i sorn it !!! that way they would have it both ways.
£1000 it cost me yesterday to remove the clamps, its just a money making scheme, but anyway, going forward, can i send off the 10 cars with a v890 and v5c by post and sorn them all and im covered?
I do appreaciate your excellent guidance on this one.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
IanJohnsonWS14
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 09:25
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 235
Joined: 2 Aug 2005
Member No.: 3,508



QUOTE (markadams @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 07:25) *
the problem is, to me, that its a private car park, not part of the public highway not council land, ......................


This is partly your problem, it is not YOUR private land (it is probably a public place as visitors have access) and you will have been reported by the residents whose visitors you are preventing from parking by occupying the spaces. Many of these car parks require vehicles parked by property owners / tenants to be road legal (taxed etc.). You will need to ask your friend for sight of the covenants relating to the property - but of course they don't apply to you as you are not an owner/resident at the property so you don't have to comply with them, or have the protection of them. I dare say he won't be very popular with his neighbours when they find out what is going on.

A van was removed from the car park at my daughter's flat, by the management company, because it was not taxed or insured and the owner didn't respond to requests to address the issue. By removed I mean winched onto a trailer while locked, it took some time for the tyre marks to wear off the car park.


--------------------
Speeding tickets, like lottery tickets, are a voluntary tax. You don't have to get them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
localdriver
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:37
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,218
Joined: 3 Sep 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 22,300



QUOTE (markadams @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 07:25) *
Surely if its off the road its off the road, its off the highway, private land, not belonging to the highway/council/ etc. It seems to me theyve made their own laws up here to suit.


The offence is being the keeper of an unlicensed vehicle (at any location) - s.29, Vehicles Excise and Registration Act 1994. There are exemptions, one is if the vehicle is not used or kept on a public road, and there is a valid SORN in respect of the vehicle - s.29 (2B), the other is if the vehicle is kept by a motor trader at business premises - s.29 (2C).

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:00
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,245
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



QUOTE (localdriver @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:37) *
QUOTE (markadams @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 07:25) *
Surely if its off the road its off the road, its off the highway, private land, not belonging to the highway/council/ etc. It seems to me theyve made their own laws up here to suit.
The offence is being the keeper of an unlicensed vehicle (at any location) - s.29, Vehicles Excise and Registration Act 1994. There are exemptions, one is if the vehicle is not used or kept on a public road, and there is a valid SORN in respect of the vehicle - s.29 (2B), the other is if the vehicle is kept by a motor trader at business premises - s.29 (2C).


Exactly that, the vehicle does not have to be seen, it is an offence that is caught from the DVLA register, generally speaking a vehicle has either to be taxed or to be on SORN, and a trawl through the register will reveal these vehicles, and the DVLA will send a demand for payment. Exceptionally, motor traders are allowed not to SORN a vehicle that is in trade (because you can only do that if you are the registered keeper, and they do not want to register the car in their name) but a condition of that is that is the vehicle is on their business premises, as you found out. What must have happened is that the vehicles were seen in the car park, they were not taxed or on SORN, the traders exemption could not apply since there were obviously not at business premises, so they were clamped.



--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Irksome
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:16
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 384
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
From: sw11
Member No.: 38,303



If I run a motor trading company and rent parking spaces to keep my stock on, do those parking spaces not become business premesis wherever they are - they are rented for the purposes of business. Much like a storage unit in a self storage lockup can be considered business premesis?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PickAName
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 18:20
Post #14


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 19 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,865



Hi everyone. Long time lurker but I had to register after reading this thread.
I have been a motor car dealer since the late seventies and I have always had trade plates since then.
QUOTE (Foxy01 @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 21:00) *
Only the cars kept at your 'premises' can be kept 'in trade' and not Sorn'd.

I disagree. A quick check on the BCA website shows they are currently holding 22,577 vehicles on their various sites. The majority of those vehicles will be owned by the motor trade. Those motor traders do not own the BCA land. If what you say is correct there are a good 22000 offences being committed today. And then there is Manheim......

Trade plates can only be used when going from trade premises to trade premises. Trade premises will include car sites, MoT stations, repair garages, auction sites and scrap yards. There is no requirement for the Trade Licence owner to either own or have control over the trade premises. If there was such a requirement it would mean that delivery by trade plates would be impossible. Getting an MoT or repairs via a third party on a stock vehicle would be impossible too.
As for the OP's situation....I would say that it will all depend on whether or not VED is required where the vehicles were parked. If not, no VED offence has been committed. However, I would suggest an offence has been committed regarding the Trade Licence. A private car park is not trade premises.
Incidentally, when I first obtained plates the rules were that they must be displayed externally and must cover the vehicle's VRM so that it could not be seen. The rules have now changed and the plates must be displayed externally but the VRM must be visible. I guess that is to allow plod to check for MoT.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 19:51
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,245
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



The DVLA advice is HERE

Presumably they either classify BCA sites as business premises of the trader who owns the vehicle, on the basis that the intention is that it should be sold from there, or consider that BCA are in temporary possession of the vehicle.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
localdriver
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 20:10
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,218
Joined: 3 Sep 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 22,300



QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 20:51) *
The DVLA advice is HERE Presumably they either classify BCA sites as business premises of the trader who owns the vehicle, on the basis that the intention is that it should be sold from there, or consider that BCA are in temporary possession of the vehicle.


As is often the case with the gov.uk website, it gives general advice, and as in this case, not always that accurate and should never be relied on without reference to the relevant legislation. The wording of the exemption for traders in s.29 (2C), Vehicles Excise & Registration Act is " if the vehicle is kept by a motor trader or vehicle tester at business premises", it does not make any reference to the ownership of the business premises.







Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 20:20
Post #17


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 20,721
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



Standard rant #46 - it never ceases to amaze me (and clearly I ought to know better by now) the amount of time people are willing to spend trying to distil the precise points of law from vague and often incorrect general advice.

However, if one were to consult VERA, one might readily stumble upon what appears to be the relevant provision(s), in section 29, helpfully entitled "Penalty for using or keeping unlicensed vehicle."

QUOTE
(2C)Subsection (1) does not apply to a vehicle if the vehicle is kept by a motor trader or vehicle tester at business premises.
(section 29 quoted in its entirety below)

I note that "at business premises" appears at first blush to have unduly wide scope, but would seem to readily explain why a vehicle kept by a motor trader at the business premises of another motor trader does not constitute an offence.

QUOTE
29 Penalty for using or keeping unlicensed vehicle.

(1)If a person uses, or keeps, [F1a vehicle] which is unlicensed he is guilty of an offence.

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1) a vehicle is unlicensed if no vehicle licence or trade licence is in force for or in respect of the vehicle.

[F2(2A)Subsection (1) does not apply to a vehicle if—

(a)it is an exempt vehicle in respect of which regulations under this Act require a nil licence to be in force and a nil licence is in force in respect of the vehicle, or

(b)it is an exempt vehicle that is not one in respect of which regulations under this Act require a nil licence to be in force.

(2B)Subsection (1) does not apply to a vehicle if—

(a)the vehicle is being neither used nor kept on a public road, and

(b)the particulars and declaration required to be furnished and made by regulations under section 22(1D) have been furnished and made in accordance with the regulations and the terms of the declaration have at no time been breached.

(2C)Subsection (1) does not apply to a vehicle if the vehicle is kept by a motor trader or vehicle tester at business premises.

(2D)The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision amending this section for the purpose of providing further exceptions from subsection (1) (or varying or revoking any such further exceptions).

(2E)A person accused of an offence under subsection (1) is not entitled to the benefit of an exception from subsection (1) conferred by or under this section unless evidence is adduced that is sufficient to raise an issue with respect to that exception; but where evidence is so adduced it is for the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the exception does not apply.]

(3)[F3Subject to subsection (3A)] a person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to an excise penalty of—

(a)level 3 on the standard scale, or

(b)five times the amount of the vehicle excise duty chargeable [F4in respect of using or keeping the vehicle on a public road],

whichever is the greater.

[F5(3A)In the case of a person who—

(a)has provided the Secretary of State with a declaration or statement (in pursuance of regulations under section 22) that the vehicle will not during a period specified in the declaration or statement be used or kept on a public road, and

(b)commits an offence under subsection (1) within a period prescribed by regulations,

subsection (3) applies as if the reference in paragraph (a) to level 3 were a reference to level 4.]

(4)Where a vehicle for which a vehicle licence is in force is transferred by the holder of the licence to another person, the licence is to be treated for the purposes of subsection (2) as no longer in force F6... .

F7(5). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(6)The amount of the vehicle excise duty chargeable in respect of a vehicle is to be taken for the purposes of subsection (3)(b) to be an amount equal to the annual rate of duty applicable to the vehicle at the date on which the offence was committed.

(7)Where in the case of a vehicle [F8not being used] on a public road that annual rate differs from the annual rate by reference to which the vehicle was at that date chargeable under [F9section 2(3) to (6)], the amount of the vehicle excise duty chargeable in respect of the vehicle is to be taken for those purposes to be an amount equal to the latter rate.

(8)In the case of a conviction for a continuing offence, the offence is to be taken for the purposes of subsections (6) and (7) to have been committed on the date or latest date to which the conviction relates.


--------------------
Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 22:50
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,245
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



Mea culpa


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
markadams
post Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 07:17
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 69
Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Member No.: 48,200



Hi everyone sorry for any delay as have been away.

Ok some updates and looking for help still as in my eyes its being made so whichever way i do anything i cannot do it right..

firstly below is the legislation (as printed on one of their leaflets) for the act.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/2439/made


secondly https://imgur.com/a/ddY671m is a letter dvla sent back to me when i sent in a v890 and completed v5c to sorn all of the vehicles..

thirdly, and this is in progress, i have had confirmation that the land is indeed NOT part of the public highway albeit it is not private in the sense that the public do have access to it. Which to be fair goes for any piece of land anywhere even bmws forecourt !!

Speaking with dvla yesterday if they choose too the cars might be clamped again if they consider it to be part of the highway for sorning them but being left on the highway. So as i say surely it is for i to prove that it is not the public highway which it isnt.

Some of the more amazing ones of you will surely be able to spot somewhere if there is anything that supports my case.

It is almost laughable that NSL on behalf of dvla have clamped the cars, but wont clamp them if they are sorned, for dvla to say i dont need to sorn them, msybe that in itself is enough evidence?

Where do i go from here?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
localdriver
post Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 07:48
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,218
Joined: 3 Sep 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 22,300



Your 1997 link is out of date. The latest legislation is sch. 2A, Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994, amended by sch. 45, Finance Act 2008, which removed the words 'on a public road', and would be the reason the vehicles were clamped where they were.

The SORN exemption is valid if the vehicles are not used or kept on a public road - a road maintainable at public expense.

This post has been edited by localdriver: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 08:12
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

7 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Wednesday, 23rd October 2019 - 01:14
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.