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PCN Rochdale Council, Appeals Process
Youngdand
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 13:03
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Hi,

I received a PCN for parking on a residential street.

I was passing through Hollingworth Lake, on what was the hottest day of the year so far with my family which includes 2 young children. We were returning from a trip to Hebden Bridge.

One of my children was car sick, and after trying to find a space in all of the carparks, eventually had to park in MILBURY DRIVE. We nipped to the toilets at the lake, which were a couple of minutes walk away, cleaned him up, and bought water from the kiosk, and returned to the car. we were in hollingworth lake for a total of 20 minutes, which included driving round to find a space, parking, cleaning up the child and the car and leaving.

I appealed with a nicely worded letter explaining this, together with google timeline images showing me driving around hollingworth lake, in and out of the car parks, and showing that were were only at the location for 20 minutes in total.

I have received a rejection to this today, advising of 2 options. to pay the reduced amount or to await a notice to keeper, which will allow me to escalate the appeal, but lose the ability to pay the discounted rate.

They have also included the pictures, and the small signs are at least 2 meters up on the lamposts.

Is this really the case, that you cannot escalate an appeal until the discount has expired?





Attached File(s)
Attached File  parkingcharg.pdf ( 276.59K ) Number of downloads: 60
Attached File  appeal.pdf ( 120.95K ) Number of downloads: 38
 
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post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 13:03
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stamfordman
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 13:35
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Post the PCN - looks like you were on a yellow line?
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Youngdand
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 13:39
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Indeed i was, i don't have the PCN to hand.

Is it worth waiting for a notice to owner and appealing further under mitigation or am i better of just paying it?



This post has been edited by Youngdand: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 13:43
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stamfordman
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 14:00
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let's see the PCN. Post a google street view link as well.
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cp8759
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 14:01
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First things first, show us the PCN. See instructions at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502 on how to upload the images.

At the moment I'm not convinced the PCN was issued for the right contravention.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Youngdand
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 14:21
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Will do, once i get home.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 17:37
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QUOTE
Is this really the case, that you cannot escalate an appeal until the discount has expired?

Yes. However many councils are now re-offering the discount when rejecting reps to a Notice to Owner, as then most people cough-up and it saves the hassle of them having to prepare their case at adjudication. However there is no right to the discount at this stage.

A Notice to Owner cannot be issued until 28 days have passed since the alleged contravention date. The discount period expires after 14 days on the same basis. Therefore you cannot escalate to formal reps in the discount period, as an NtO will not have been issued. Indeed, only when you have submitted formal reps to an NtO and been rejected, can you register an appeal with the adjudicators.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 18:57
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Youngdand
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 07:39
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HI, thanks for the advice so far. here are the links to the PCN

https://imgur.com/3LSBr3s
https://imgur.com/gEPIAW5

Thanks,

Dan.
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Youngdand
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 09:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 14:01) *
First things first, show us the PCN. See instructions at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502 on how to upload the images.

At the moment I'm not convinced the PCN was issued for the right contravention.


Do the attached images help?
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stamfordman
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 09:40
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It's this street with these entry sign:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6308313,-2....3312!8i6656

but it looks to me like they have failed to remove single yellow lines?

We think this is the wrong contravention - a yellow line must be controlled by a timeplate or zone entry sign giving times - the idea of these permit parking zones is that they dispense with yellow lines.

Let's see what the consensus is.
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cp8759
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 10:15
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Upload the back of the PCN in full, also we need to see the council pictures. I'm not sure Rochdale puts them online so you might need to email them and ask.

If you were parked on a disused yellow line, it's going to be a case of wrong contravention.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Youngdand
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 10:43
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Thanks for taking the time to look in to this.

Here is the back of the PCN


https://imgur.com/6Qv2697

For reference these were the photos included with their response:
https://imgur.com/bdm79Y0

This post has been edited by Youngdand: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 10:58
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cp8759
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 12:18
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Is there a time-plate associated with that single yellow line? If you were parked during restricted hours, the contravention code should be 01, rather than 12


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:41
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As regards representations, it's not the 'wrong contravention' because these are not grounds for representation.

The contravention did not occur.

Why?

Because you were parked on a yellow line.

Why is this important?

Because the authority claim you were in an unmarked parking place.

Could the yellow line have been within an unmarked parking place?

Technically yes - but in reality not a hope in hell, and anyway if it was then a different sign was required.


I ****(your story) and ultimately I decided to park on the -at that time -unrestricted yellow line which can be seen in the CEO's photos. The authority claim I was parked in a parking place within 'an area b)where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road'.
(see Schedule 1 to the Traffic etc. Signs Regs 2016 for the full definition)

However, I was not within any such parking place, as the authority's evidence clearly shows I was parked on a length of street indicated as having a part-time waiting restriction. Consequently the location was not a 'parking place' and therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.

OP, I want to add more but you need to post the back of the PCN please.

Something along the lines of...

I appreciate that this places the authority in a predicament because all parts of the area with 'Permit Holders Only' entry signs where the road is marked with a yellow line - which seems a considerable length - are not subject to the parking restriction indicated on the sign and therefore represent unrestricted lengths of road when the yellow lines are not in effect.

I am happy to let you deal with this matter if, as you are compelled to do, you cancel my PCN. However, if I am forced to take this to adjudication I shall not only request costs but will lodge an official complaint with the council.

If the officer considering these representations is unsure, then I suggest they (and indeed given the nature of this issue it would be prudent to) refer the matter to a senior officer.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:42
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Youngdand
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 09:23
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:41) *
As regards representations, it's not the 'wrong contravention' because these are not grounds for representation.

The contravention did not occur.

Why?

Because you were parked on a yellow line.

Why is this important?

Because the authority claim you were in an unmarked parking place.

Could the yellow line have been within an unmarked parking place?

Technically yes - but in reality not a hope in hell, and anyway if it was then a different sign was required.


I ****(your story) and ultimately I decided to park on the -at that time -unrestricted yellow line which can be seen in the CEO's photos. The authority claim I was parked in a parking place within 'an area b)where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road'.
(see Schedule 1 to the Traffic etc. Signs Regs 2016 for the full definition)

However, I was not within any such parking place, as the authority's evidence clearly shows I was parked on a length of street indicated as having a part-time waiting restriction. Consequently the location was not a 'parking place' and therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.

OP, I want to add more but you need to post the back of the PCN please.

Something along the lines of...

I appreciate that this places the authority in a predicament because all parts of the area with 'Permit Holders Only' entry signs where the road is marked with a yellow line - which seems a considerable length - are not subject to the parking restriction indicated on the sign and therefore represent unrestricted lengths of road when the yellow lines are not in effect.

I am happy to let you deal with this matter if, as you are compelled to do, you cancel my PCN. However, if I am forced to take this to adjudication I shall not only request costs but will lodge an official complaint with the council.

If the officer considering these representations is unsure, then I suggest they (and indeed given the nature of this issue it would be prudent to) refer the matter to a senior officer.



Thanks for this.

Is it best shooting this off now or waiting for a notice to owner to be sent?


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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 00:18
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I would wait for the Notice to Owner.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Youngdand
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 10:16
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Thanks a million everyone.
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Youngdand
post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 11:40
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HI all,

I submitted the suggested response as worded below:

Dear Sirs,

I recently received a Penalty Charge Notice with the number RE04081990 For parking in a residents only zone at Hollingworth lake.



Firstly I would like to apologise, and state that this is not something that I would normally do, as you will be able to see, from my record of having no prior parking tickets. However, on this occasion, we were only passing through Hollingworth lake, returning as family from a trip out to Hebdon Bridge with 2 young children on what had been the hottest day of the year to date.


image.png



One of my children was feeling quite unwell, and had been sick. we had driven round for some time to find a parking space in order to use the toilet facilities by the lake, but as the weather was nice, there was no places to park. As can be seen from a screen shot of my google timeline below.
image.png



As you will see from the next screenshot, we only stayed in hollingworth lake for a total of 20 minutes, this included the time driving round looking for parking spaces, , cleaning up my children and the car, and purchasing water at the kiosk to ensure the children were not dehydrated.




image.png



Im sure that you will appreciate the necessity for us to stop for the wellbeing of our children, and hope that you will consider cancelling the charge on this ocassion, and my ultimate decision to park on the -at that time -unrestricted yellow line which can be seen in the CEO's photos.


The authority claim I was parked in a parking place within 'an area where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road'.
(see Schedule 1 to the Traffic etc. Signs Regs 2016 for the full definition)

However, I was not within any such parking place, as the authority's evidence clearly shows I was parked on a length of street indicated as having a part-time waiting restriction. Consequently the location was not a 'parking place' and therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.

and have recieve the attached rejection, would be grateful of any advice on how to proceed.

Thanks

Dan.

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Attached File  RE04081990_1.pdf ( 523K ) Number of downloads: 30
 
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cp8759
post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 14:49
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Couple of things:

1) Is there a time-plate associated with the single yellow line? The council's first photo suggests there might be, we need you to find out. Ideally we need a photo of the sign.

2) It looks like the Notice of Rejection might have been emailed to you, have you received a copy in the post as well?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 17:11
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This is the law as opposed to the received wisdom and stupidity of the council:

permit parking area”
an area—
(a)into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and
(b)where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/1/made

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/5/made


And ONLY UNMARKED LENGTHS OF ROAD could be parking places.

They are idiots.

Either write back now to a senior officer and threaten them with costs and a formal complaint or just register your appeal and claim costs at that stage.
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