PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Council PCN - Permit Holders
enesoz
post Sat, 13 Jul 2019 - 21:03
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,766



Hi All

I parked at my local GP and payed for a ticket but had missed the signs stating the bays are for permit holders. I wrote an initial appeal but it was rejected and now I want to appeal to the parking adjudicator. I came here to seek advice on my next move as I believe I have a case. The other day I went to the car park and noticed the permit holders signage had been removed. The rest of the car park is pay and display it is just this particular strip that is permit holders.

Images:
http://tinypic.com/r/t5rdsg/9

My Appeal:
http://tinypic.com/r/6ie3o2/9

Council Response:
http://tinypic.com/r/2nlwx82/9
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 15)
Advertisement
post Sat, 13 Jul 2019 - 21:03
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 13 Jul 2019 - 22:26
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,657
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



You didn't make an informal challenge within 14 days? The rejection you have is to formal reps to the NTO? There's no reoffer of discount so no brainer to appeal to tribunal.

You have given no dates, no PCN and no location.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
enesoz
post Sat, 13 Jul 2019 - 22:54
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,766



Yes I forgot to appeal informally within the 14 day period. Apologies, below is the NTO.

http://tinypic.com/r/il9ieo/9
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 18:30
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,866
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Show us the original PCN, and a give us a link to the location on google street view.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
enesoz
post Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 20:59
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,766



Unfortunately, I have lost the original PCN but here is the car park on Google Maps

https://goo.gl/maps/VSHX69PqijCn2MKv8

This is the part of the car park where I was issued the ticket. According to Google, this image was captured in April 2018, and you can see there are no permit holder signs. They were added later, but when I went to visit the car park more recently after getting the ticket, they had been removed again.

Attached Image


What should my plan of action be when appealing to the adjudicator?

This post has been edited by enesoz: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 21:03
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 09:13
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,866
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Personally I'm very suspicious of these temporary permit bays. For the restriction to be valid, the council must have amended the Traffic Order for the car park, which I suspect didn't happen. As the discount is no longer an option, you might as well appeal to the tribunal, there's nothing to be lost at this point.

In the reasons box just write "detailed grounds to follow" and select the ground that "the alleged contravention did not occur"; the tribunal will write to you and to the council confirming that the appeal has been registered. At that point the council has 7 days to upload certain minimum evidence, if they don't they commit a procedural impropriety. In due course the tribunal will write to you and confirm the deadline by which you must submit your full appeal wording, but you might as well force the council to show their hand first.

There's also the served / delivered flaw on the Notice of Rejection.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
enesoz
post Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 12:46
Post #7


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,766



Thank you stamfordman and cp8759 for your replies. I too think the council haven't ammended the Traffic Order and will commence my appeal to the tribunal. In the mean time I want prepare my detailed grounds. What points should I be making? Should I change my wording from the original appeal I wrote and include any new points?

Attached Image
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 13:19
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,117
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



OP, before we get into your appeal, we're still short of facts:

The authority's photos;
Photos of the noticeboard at the car park;
The full NOR.

Over to you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
enesoz
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:39
Post #9


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,766



I went to the car park the other day and had a look. The permit holder bays have been moved to another part of the car park. Where the white Peugeot is parked is where I was issued the ticket. I have attached the images and the other requested information.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


I have have uploaded the rest through tinypic as I have run out of upload space:

NOR:
http://tinypic.com/r/2nlwx82/9

Authorities Photos
http://tinypic.com/r/t5rdsg/9

Thanks

This post has been edited by enesoz: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:47
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:38
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,117
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Go for it.

On *** I parked in Love Lane Pay and Display car park.

I parked in accordance with the instructions on the noticeboard prominently displayed at the entrance, see enclosed photo. In particular, I would direct the adjudicator's attention to the following references in this notice:

This is a Pay and Display car park;
Before leaving the vehicle pay at machine and display ticket...


I complied with the above requirements - see copy of my P&D ticket - and there appears to be no issue with the authority on this point.

I would add that there is no reference whatsoever to the existence of, let alone the rules pertaining to the use of, permit bay(s), neither to what sanctions might be available to the council should some restriction in this respect be contravened.

The authority's argument appears to be that the sign visible in their photos and located in the parking bay next to my vehicle somehow had effect where I was parked despite there being no indication on the sign or the surface that my bay fell within its scope. They also appear to argue that this sign created a superior restriction to those on the noticeboard prominently displayed at the entrance.

I submit that they are wrong and that my parking with the benefit of a P&D ticket correctly displayed was not a contravention. I therefore respectfully submit that my appeal should be allowed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
enesoz
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 18:37
Post #11


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,766



Thank you hcanderson, I will submit this to the tribunal and update the post with the outcome.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 12:58
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,866
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



If the council contests the appeal, they will upload a copy of the Traffic Management Order for this car part to the tribunal website. When you get a chance upload a copy of the TMO on here so we can have a look. If there's no reference in the order to permit bays, I think you should go after the council for costs.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
enesoz
post Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 13:09
Post #13


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,766



A few days ago I had my adjudication and was succussful in winning the appeal. I would like to thank everyone for their contribution and great advice. Attached is the adjudicators verdict.Attached File  Verdict.pdf ( 533.31K ) Number of downloads: 18


This post has been edited by enesoz: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 13:15
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 10 Sep 2019 - 14:53
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,866
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



If you show us a copy of the traffic management order, we can check if an application for costs is viable. The council must have uploaded the order to the tribunal website together with their other evidence.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
enesoz
post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 17:45
Post #15


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,766



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xP93LtQDpN...iew?usp=sharing

^ Is the TMO. Can I go at them for costs?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 19:12
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,866
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



No, there's a provision in the order for permit bays


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Sunday, 20th October 2019 - 22:41
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.