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final reminder came first then NIP after
kifty
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:23
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Hi All

So basically 49mph on 40mph on 18.5.19, received FINAL REMINDER in wifes name dated 30.6.19 (well over 14 days) but received on 3.7.19. I then replied to the FINAL REMINDER with my name as I think I was driving that day, but I honestly can't remember. With the reply wrote a letter stating I am not sure who drove on the day but I have given my name and also the law states an NIP should be sent first and within 14 days of the contravention.

What do they do? They send me an NIP today dated 9.7.19 in my name. Totally ignoring my letter.

Do I have grounds for appeal the fact that they sent Final reminder first then NIP? And the fact they have missed the deadline of ending an NIP within 14 days?

Please find attached the letters.

https://ibb.co/4gYN7pv
https://ibb.co/GxQpW1D

Thanks

K
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post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:23
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The Rookie
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:29
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I’m glad they ignored your letter, you could have landed your wife in a heap of pain as the legal requirement is for an unambiguous response and it should have come from her and not you.

The only NIP that counts in law is the first one, which will normally go to the registered keeper which is?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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kifty
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:35
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apologies, the letter WAS from her, I am dealing with this on her behalf on this forum. No NIPs were received up until today in my name. May wife replied to the final remind and completed the back stating I was the driver. However in HER letter to the police, she stated we are not sure who was driving but thinks it was me.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:43
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In that case it’s still good news they ignored the qualified nomination.

And the RK is?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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kifty
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:47
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RK is my wife
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Jlc
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:50
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QUOTE (kifty @ Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 20:47) *
RK is my wife

What’s the docref date at the bottom of page 2 of the v5c? (In DD MM YYY format)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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kifty
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:56
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v5c is the logbook? Im just getting home in an hour then post it on here.
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Jlc
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 20:07
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Yes - the date is when the DVLA updated their records. Only relevant if the car changed ownership recently or you moved.

But also worth checking the address is 100% correct.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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kifty
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 20:12
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doc ref date is 01 06 17 and the address is correct
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Redivi
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 20:21
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So the DVLA could have been in the process of updating the details and the original NIp went to an old address

As you've already been told, your wife is very lucky that the police ignored your letter

She wouldn't be the first person with an S172 conviction because she tried to give a completely accurate response
An S172 response that names a driver but with a note that she's not entirely sure would usually result in an immediate prosecution and probable conviction - £500/6 points
A friend of mine was convicted for precisely this reason


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southpaw82
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 20:35
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 21:21) *
So the DVLA could have been in the process of updating the details and the original NIp went to an old address

For two years?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 20:39
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I think it's more likely the original NIP went astray. But the burden falls on the defendant if the prosecution can demonstrate they produced and post the 1st NIP in time.

Any driver nomination must be unequivocal unless you want to risk a court visit.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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3phase278
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 21:01
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QUOTE (kifty @ Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 19:35) *
However in HER letter to the police, she stated we are not sure who was driving but thinks it was me.


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 20:43) *
In that case it’s still good news they ignored the qualified nomination.


Are you sure they have ignored that? Yes it's a possibility, but how do you know?

It wouldn't be the first time they just send another s.172 to the new nominated driver whilst proceeding against the original respondent (the wife) who still ends up with a fail to furnish charge in a few months for adding a letter that makes her reply ambiguous.
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cp8759
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 21:41
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QUOTE (kifty @ Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 20:35) *
apologies, the letter WAS from her, I am dealing with this on her behalf on this forum. No NIPs were received up until today in my name. May wife replied to the final remind and completed the back stating I was the driver. However in HER letter to the police, she stated we are not sure who was driving but thinks it was me.

OK, so regardless, you need to answer the s172 that was served on you. So, we're you driving?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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kifty
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 22:56
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Hi guys,

thanks for you're replies. Ok, Im a bit confused and worried.

What wrong has my wife done by writing a letter stating 1. the NIP was not sent to her 2. That her husband (me) was most likely driving and hence she has filled in his name in the 'final reminder' as per law we should do. 3. The Final reminder came in her name, and she's nominated me as the driver, additionally attaching a letter as described in points 1 and 2.

What criminal offence has she comitted writing a letter genuinely stating that 'its been a while since the alleged contravention, and my husband and I are insured in the same car, but how can we remember who was driving the car on a date which was 6 weeks ago on a specific day and time. Nevertheless, I think it was my husband driving on that Saturday'.

The V5c decref is 2017- its 2 years. So it can't have gone to another address as the alleged contravention happened in May 2019.

I probably was driving, so this new NIP in my name do I complete it and send within the timeframe?

With regards to the letter, I don't know if they've ignored it or not, Im assuming it they have as they have not replied to it. But my worry is that someone mentioned she may be prosecuted for the ambiguous letter few months down the line sad.gif
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blackcross
post Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 04:07
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If you now nominate yourself as the driver I doubt that the Met will bother your wife further. Her nomination of you wasn’t unambiguous but if you don’t equivocate in similar fashion they will have a clearly named driver. Your post does not suggest the possibility of a third party being the driver on that day.

Having named yourself you can try to run a late NIP argument, but the received wisdom is that it will be an uphill struggle unless there is decent evidence of recurring postal problems. Think carefully about playing that card though, as the opportunity for a course, or a fixed £100 and 3 points, may vanish.

Have you done a course in the last three years?
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kifty
post Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 06:21
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would it by wise to call the non emergency police helpline to get advice?
yes I have done the course in within the last 3 years.
I have 0 points on my license.
If I were to appeal what is the process? Do I still reply to the NIP saying yes it was me driving and then attache a letter appeal?
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Jlc
post Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 06:31
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A criminal offence per se is not committed by being ‘honest’. But the keeper has to name the driver unequivocally- casting any doubt on that makes it equivocal.

If they pursued, then a statutory defence is afforded - she’d just have to show that she did not know who was driving and that after reasonable diligence they could not be identified. As noted this isn’t easy but can be done. (Any ‘late’ NIP is no defence to this charge)

If you want to avoid court then only unqualified nominations will do.

Where it gets sticky is when the wrong driver is deliberately named.

QUOTE (kifty @ Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 07:21) *
would it by wise to call the non emergency police helpline to get advice?
yes I have done the course in within the last 3 years.
I have 0 points on my license.
If I were to appeal what is the process? Do I still reply to the NIP saying yes it was me driving and then attache a letter appeal?

The police do not provide legal advice - that’s what solicitors do.

It’s not an appeal. The matter of naming the driver and the underlying offence are separate matters. Should you want to contest the late NIP then the driver nomination must be resolved first.

To ‘fight’ a late NIP it would go to court and you would face a trial. Should the police be able to demonstrate the 1st NIP was sent it time (it’s presumed delivered) then you would have to rebut this presumption.

If you cannot do this then you’ll be sentenced accordingly and pick up prosecution costs (listed at £620).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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kifty
post Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 06:44
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ok thank you for the reply.

can I contest this new NIP as a late reply now? So for me this is fresh new regardless what my wife wrote to them ( and also my wife replied back to the final reminder in time too). Because offence date is 18.5.19 and the date on letter is 09.07.19. So almost 2 months down the line. Would that give me a good chance ion court?

If so should I reply to the NIP as usual and then how do I take it to court?
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 06:48
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Only the first NIP, which needs to be served within 14 days, can be "late". All subsequent notices have no such constraints.
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