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Out of time witness statement refused, Help appreciated on options and next steps
TimG
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 12:45
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Hi all

I would appreciate any help/ advice you can offer on my next steps after out of time witness statement has been refused.

The situation is as follows:

- My wife and I bought a car in March 2018. At the time we transferred our Hackney resident's permit from our old car to the new one.
- There was an issue with Hackney council processing this change, which went on for several months. Over the course of this time we received four PCNs for parking without a valid permit. Each time we followed up with Hackney who said the issue had been resolved, which it wasn't until the last time (in June 2018 - which this PCN relates to).
- Three of the PCNs were overturned because of the error on Hackneys part. Until recently I had assumed the last had been as well.
- However, recently our car was clamped. When we rang the bailiffs they informed us it was in relation to a PCN form June 2018 and all correspondence had been sent to a flat we moved out of in March 2016 (two years before we owned the car). However, Hackney had given our current address as the address to recover the debt. The bailiff agreed not to remove the car and not to take any more action, but did not remove the clamp.
- At this stage my wife (who is the registered owner of the car) submitted TE7 and TE9 forms, as we had not received any correspondence from the TEC or bailiffs.
- The clamp was recently removed from the car
- However, last week we received a notice from the TEC stating our out of time application had been rejected.

We did appeal the PCN when it was first awarded but did not receive a response.

As far as I can see, we now have three options:

1. Request an appeal, at a cost of £100 without a hearing, or £255 with a hearing
2. Pay the charge, which is c£650
3. Wait for the car to get clamped/ removed

I have attached the "statement of truth" from Hackney, which states they randomly started posting things to our old address midway through the process. Given the other PCNs received in the same period for the same reason were overturned, this one should be as well. Even if that is not the case, I don't think I can be asked fro more than £203 as this is the amount after the last letter they set to is.

Is this what the judge will consider in any hearing or is it purely on whether the out of time should be granted?


Statement of Truth, TE7, TE9 and rejection letter here:









I would be grateful for any advice on the next steps and options I have.

Thanks

This post has been edited by TimG: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 12:57
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post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 12:45
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stamfordman
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 12:54
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Sounds like a classic cock up which you fuelled by not having the V5C reg doc up to date with your address? What address is on it now?
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TimG
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 13:02
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 13:54) *
Sounds like a classic cock up which you fuelled by not having the V5C reg doc up to date with your address? What address is on it now?


Yes it does! It is at our current address now, and we received the V5C around June 2018, although it states we have owned the car since Feb 2018 at this address. The car which the PCN was on was never registered at the address the council directed the court to though, as we moved out two years before we bought it!

Is there anything I can do?
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 13:16
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Your TE9 claimed you made representations. When was that?

---
The rest is going to take some decyphering.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TimG
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 13:45
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:16) *
Your TE9 claimed you made representations. When was that?

---
The rest is going to take some decyphering.


I made informal representations on 26 June 2018, on the same grounds that I used to have the other 3 PCNs overturned, but I did not receive the reply. Sorry, though I had put that in my first post.
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 13:52
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QUOTE (TimG @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:45) *
I made informal representations on 26 June 2018, on the same grounds that I used to have the other 3 PCNs overturned, but I did not receive the reply. Sorry, though I had put that in my first post.

You did and that's what I'm worried about.
That makes your WS false; you did not make representations against the notice to owner.

--
Both you and Hackney refer to notices being sent here there and everywhere; neither make anything clear.

Just tell us what notices you did receive.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TimG
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:21
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:52) *
QUOTE (TimG @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:45) *
I made informal representations on 26 June 2018, on the same grounds that I used to have the other 3 PCNs overturned, but I did not receive the reply. Sorry, though I had put that in my first post.

You did and that's what I'm worried about.
That makes your WS false; you did not make representations against the notice to owner.

--
Both you and Hackney refer to notices being sent here there and everywhere; neither make anything clear.

Just tell us what notices you did receive.


Thanks - appreciate it is difficult to follow with the redacted addresses.

Documents I received:

PCN - attached to windscreen on 04/06/2018
Charge certificate - dated 07/09/2018 (in the Statement of Truth this is referred to as "Charge Certificate sent to hirer")

I did not receive the rejection letter that Hackney say they sent on 09/07/2018 or the NTO that Hackney have said they sent to me on 02/08/2018.

All of the following was sent to my previous address (which I moved out of in April 2016 and where this car was never registered) and as such I did not receive:

Notice to Owner - 04/10/2018
Charge Certificate - 08/11/2018
Order for Recovery - 11/01/2019
Warrant - 18/04/2019

Is there any other information you need? My current address is in Hackney, I had a different car registered here from April 2016 to January 2019 if that is of any relevance?
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:24
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For now, specifically, -

What happened to the correctly addressed NtO dated 2/8/18.
and the Charge Cert of 7/9/18 ?
Does the address appear 100% correct on the SoT?


What happened to cause Hackney to note a different address on 2/10/18 and then issue a new NtO
on 4/10/18 ?
Is there something you haven't told us?

---
The salient point is that the OfR of 11/1/19 went to the amended, wrong address.
One where the car had never been registered? Why?
Yet Hackney say 'address given by DVLA'

and then this makes no sense either -
QUOTE (TimG @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 13:45) *
However, Hackney had given our current address as the address to recover the debt.

Are you sure or had the bailiff co themselves traced you?

Phone TEC to ask what address the debt was originally registered to and changes since.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:51
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Taking the council's evidence as per their letter of objection you should easily succeed with a N244, subject to confirmation of a couple of points.

This evidence is that:
They issued a NTO on 11 July 2018;
Reps were received and accepted that the recipient was not the owner;
Those reps included the name and address of the person to whom they sold the car;
On 2 Aug. the authority then issued a fresh NTO to the named person, and this is where the OP MUST be precise. All you've put is 'me'. But do you mean you at your current address or what? Your account and their actions are totally at odds.

This NTO was cancelled by the authority for no apparent legal reason;
They then sent a fresh NTO to ? at your old address.

I'm not going further because what we need is the answer to a couple more questions:
Did you receive the NTO issued on 2 Aug. If so, what did you do?
Did you receive an NTO dated 4 Oct? And if so what did you do?
What do you know about 'On 2 Oct. another address received'?

You have until 14 July to submit your N244.

DVLA are not in the picture with this one. The address to which the NTO dated 11 July was sent was given by the recipient of the first NTO, nowt to do with DVLA.
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TimG
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:52
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:24) *
For now, specifically, -

What happened to the correctly addressed NtO dated 2/8/18.
and the Charge Cert of 7/9/18 ?
Does the address appear 100% correct on the SoT?


What happened to cause Hackney to note a different address on 2/10/18 and then issue a new NtO
on 4/10/18 ?
Is there something you haven't told us?

---
The salient point is that the OfR of 11/1/19 went to the amended, wrong address.
One where the car had never been registered? Why?
Yet Hackney say 'address given by DVLA'

and then this makes no sense either -
QUOTE (TimG @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 13:45) *
However, Hackney had given our current address as the address to recover the debt.

Are you sure or had the bailiff co themselves traced you?

Phone TEC to ask what address the debt was originally registered to and changes since.


Thanks Neil.

I never received the correctly addressed NTO, but we have a slightly dodgy communal post system here and it would not be the first letter to not arrive. I have the Charge Certificate from 07/09/2018.

I have given you all of the information I have. I don't know what prompted Hackney to change the address in November or why they did it. If they did get the address from the DVLA I don't know how the DVLA got it. (Might be relevant that that the address used there is not quite right either, our address was 462A, this was just addressed to 462 which I don't think exists)

I will phone TEC to get confirmation on the addresses and whether there has been any changes as soon as I can.

Thanks again for your help.
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TimG
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:03
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:51) *
Taking the council's evidence as per their letter of objection you should easily succeed with a N244, subject to confirmation of a couple of points.

This evidence is that:
They issued a NTO on 11 July 2018;
Reps were received and accepted that the recipient was not the owner;
Those reps included the name and address of the person to whom they sold the car;
On 2 Aug. the authority then issued a fresh NTO to the named person, and this is where the OP MUST be precise. All you've put is 'me'. But do you mean you at your current address or what? Your account and their actions are totally at odds.

To be clear, the part that redacted as "Me" in the Statement of Truth is the correct address where the car was registered.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:51) *
This NTO was cancelled by the authority for no apparent legal reason;
They then sent a fresh NTO to ? at your old address.

This was to me at (very nearly) my old address (addressed to 462, not 462A).
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:51) *
I'm not going further because what we need is the answer to a couple more questions:
Did you receive the NTO issued on 2 Aug. If so, what did you do?

I did not receive this NTO (although as noted below this does not mean it was not sent).
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:51) *
Did you receive an NTO dated 4 Oct? And if so what did you do?

This was sent to an old address and I have not seen it.
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:51) *
What do you know about 'On 2 Oct. another address received'?

I wish I knew something about this, but I don't know how this address has come into the picture.
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:57
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QUOTE (TimG @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 16:03) *
I wish I knew something about this, but I don't know how this address has come into the picture.

Ask Hackney?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TimG
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 14:26
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:24) *
Phone TEC to ask what address the debt was originally registered to and changes since.


To follow up on this I have spoken to the TEC who said the debt was registered at our current address and has not changed since then.

I think I would like to put in an N244, but have a couple of questions before I do:

1. Is the fee refundable if I am successful?
2. In this case, would it be worth applying for a hearing rather than just a review by a judge?
3. The information to rely on is the process followed and the fact the most recent documents were all sent to the wrong address, with no reason for the address to be changed. Is there any specific language or phrases I should include?

Thanks
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cp8759
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 15:02
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QUOTE (TimG @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 15:26) *
1. Is the fee refundable if I am successful?

The fee is not normally refunded, but that seems to be because nobody who's ever sent an N244 in such circumstances has any idea how to apply for an order for costs. Under the normal rules of civil procedure, the losing party pays the costs of an application. This is the rules on costs in the county court, no matter how much hcandersen might disagree.

If you want to include an application for an order for costs with your N244 (if you go down this route at all), I'm more than happy to help you with that aspect of it.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 15:26
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 16:02) *
If you want to include an application for an order for costs with your N244 (if you go down this route at all), I'm more than happy to help you with that aspect of it.

I was already thinking of you on that aspect.
When you previously made the suggestion there simply was no time to risk a 'bounced' N244.
I did say it was something for a future case.
Here, we have some days to play with and I'm all for you having a crack.

That said, the OP is NOT ready, despite him believing he is.

I'll explain that when I have a mo.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 16:21
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My head hurts with this account!

PCN issued by hand:
NTO 1 issued to registered keeper(lease company) who transferred liability to the OP as 'owner', NOA issued 1 Aug. We do not know what address was supplied and used for the purposes of NTO 2;
NTO 2: issued 2 Aug. to addressee but with only a partially correct address i.e. 462 ***, not 462A which is where the OP lived until March 2016, 2 years prior;

OP says they received a Charge Cert on 7 Sept. What! How did you get a CC addressed to an address 2 years out of date??

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TimG
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 18:15
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 17:21) *
My head hurts with this account!

PCN issued by hand:
NTO 1 issued to registered keeper(lease company) who transferred liability to the OP as 'owner', NOA issued 1 Aug. We do not know what address was supplied and used for the purposes of NTO 2;
NTO 2: issued 2 Aug. to addressee but with only a partially correct address i.e. 462 ***, not 462A which is where the OP lived until March 2016, 2 years prior;

OP says they received a Charge Cert on 7 Sept. What! How did you get a CC addressed to an address 2 years out of date??


If it helps my head hurts too!

Couple of clarifications:

NTO1 issued to previous owner not lease company
NTO2 (2 Aug) issued to me at correct current address (but not received). CC1 (7 Sept) received at correct current address
NTO3 (4 Nov) issued to old, partially correct address and all further correspondence sent to this address until clamping

Appreciate everyone's help on this. Please let me know if any of the information I have given isn't clear or you need anything else!
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Neil B
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 21:48
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QUOTE (TimG @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 15:26) *
I think I would like to put in an N244,

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 16:26) *
That said, the OP is NOT ready, despite him believing he is.
I'll explain that when I have a mo.

QUOTE (TimG @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 15:26) *
3. The information to rely on is the process followed and the fact the most recent documents were all sent to the wrong address, with no reason for the address to be changed.

Indeed but you want to present the judge with mysteries or facts?
and I said>
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 16:57) *
QUOTE (TimG @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 16:03) *
I wish I knew something about this, but I don't know how this address has come into the picture.

Ask Hackney?

Ask them that.
Then, refer to their SoT where they told the court they had posted notices to a DVLA supplied address.
Ask them the date of their 'VQ4' request to DVLA and a copy of the 'VQ5' response.
Do this by phone, if you're any good at getting the appropriate officer but back it up with an e-mail as well.

--
We know what they've claimed can't be right but I suspect it's just a case of the SoT responding officer using
stock template sentences ----- and misleading the court by doing so.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 09:26
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 22:48) *
We know what they've claimed can't be right but I suspect it's just a case of the SoT responding officer using
stock template sentences ----- and misleading the court by doing so.

If we can show that the council officer signed a statement of truth recklessly, we could go after that individual for contempt of court.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 13:59
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 15:51) *
Taking the council's evidence as per their letter of objection you should easily succeed with a N244, subject to confirmation of a couple of points.

You have until 14 July to submit your N244.

I make it 17th but I doubt Hackney or the bailiff will recognise that.
We're also in the dangerously grey area of the 14 days, where most councils won't
enforce but some do.

I suggest, if proceeding, Tim gets the fee paid by tomorrow and we finalise and file over
the weekend/Monday am.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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