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Unknown PCN, Bailiffs for parking contravention in 2018???
Booooom
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 20:28
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Hi all

Some mail has recently been re-directed to me from an address from which I moved out of many many years ago. Amongst the mail were a handfull of letters relating to a PCN (Offence date October 2018).

I have only just become aware of the contravention but it seems as though bailiffs have already called at the old address and left a letter advising they had attended today to remove goods or take control of goods.

I realise the matter is probably too far gone to dispute with the bailiffs but had i known about the contravention, I would have just paid the fine.

As it stands, I have received the following:

A charge certificate dated 15/01/2019
Form TE3 (Not dated but to be filed or paid by 17/03/2019)
Form TE9 (Not Dated)
Notice of Enforcement (dated 10/04/19 - to be replied to by 23/04/19)
Bailiff hand posted letter (Marston) to take control or remove goods for sale (dated 12/06/2019)

[attachment=64791:11.jpg]
[attachment=64792:12.jpeg]
[attachment=64795:13.jpeg]
[attachment=64796:14.jpeg]
[attachment=64797:15.jpeg]
I have attched 2 of the notices while i figure out how to attach the rest.


Is there any way of reverting this back to PCN stage so I can just pay or is this no longer possible?

Many thanks in advance

*EDIT remainder of attachments

This post has been edited by Booooom: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 20:33
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post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 20:28
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Neil B
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 20:48
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And the vehicle concerned is currently registered to what address?
Go and check the V5C.


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Neil is good at working backwards.

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Booooom
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 21:36
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 21:48) *
And the vehicle concerned is currently registered to what address?
Go and check the V5C.


The vehicle was registered at the old address and is a work van. I'd had the van for about 9 years and recently changed address on the V5 (I moved from the old address about 6 years ago and changed addresses on everything bar the V5 - oversight). I did however change the address around the time i got the PCN which is possibly why they still have the old address.
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Incandescent
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 22:00
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QUOTE
I did however change the address around the time i got the PCN which is possibly why they still have the old address.

This piece of information may be your Get-out-Of-Jail-Free Card !

OP, the only way to revert the matter is to submit an Out-of-Time Witness Statement that you did not receive the Notice to Owner which is sent by post, the PCN having been attached to your vehicle. These often go astray. Most of those we help with on here have still not updated their V5 even when they start a thread !

Before you submit an OOT, you need to check the date of the NtO, and compare it with the date on your V5C and also when you estimate you sent it off for updating. Come back on here with the relevant dates and we'll see if you have a runner or not. Having got your name and address off the DVLA for the Notice to Owner, all subsequent enforcement documents are sent to the same address. If your V5C was at the DVLA or updating when the council asked for your name and address, the old one could well have been passed back. HOwever dates are essential here to establish a successful OOT. Why ? Because the council can oppose your OOT and will probably do so
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Booooom
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 22:20
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I can check the date on the V5 but I'm not sure when I would have received the original notice to owner. The only items I have received from the old address are the ones I have attached in the first post. Will post back with the date on V5C details. Thanks
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Neil B
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 22:37
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QUOTE (Booooom @ Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 23:20) *
I'm not sure when I would have received the original notice to owner.

Have a guess who might be able to tell you and ask them.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 07:55
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As in - Lancashire County Council !
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Booooom
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 08:33
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Ok so just checked the V5 and address change date is 23 10 2018.

On the charge certificate I attached in the first post it does say a notice to owner was sent on 19 11 2018.
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Redivi
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 08:35
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Will the council pass the information to Marstons before he has the chance to submit the OOT application ?

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Incandescent
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 09:18
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OK, so we now have: -

5th Oct - PCN issue date
23rd Oct - V5C updated with your new address
19th Nov - NtO issued

So something doesn't add up, as your V5 address was correct before they issued the NtO, and even before the date that they even could issue an NtO. The earliest possible date for issue of an NtO is 1st Nov, 28 days after the PCN date. However, they could be getting name and address at a much earlier stage, so if they requested it before the 23rd Oct, they would have got your old address. If they applied, say, on the 20th Oct, this would be a full 11 days in advance of their legal right to issue a Notice to Owner.

To me, this is maladministration. The only caveat is whether you have read the date right on your V5. Maybe you should check again that the date is correct, and the name and address for this date is also is correct.

Sorry about asking for all this detail, but it is very important with OOTs to get all one's ducks in a row before submitting. Incidentally, how much are the bailiffs asking ? It's blanked out on your bailiff letter.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 10:18
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I'm still not 100% clear and would appreciate you presenting the facts as follows. (NB. in particular, I'm confused by your reference to form TE7 which is an application to file a witness statement out of time because neither the authority nor TEC would have any reason to send this???)

I live at address B.

Some mail has recently been re-directed to me from an address from which I moved out of many many years ago. Amongst the mail were a handfull of letters relating to a PCN (Offence date October 2018). Let's call this address A.

These are:
**** (name of notice and date of issue)
****(ditto)
*****((ditto)

To date I have not received any mail addressed to address B, if true.

Address B was entered into DVLA's register on *** (date) replacing address A.

So far your account uses the term 'received mail' synonymously with served, but they're not. Mail not addressed to you which reaches you other than by a mail re-direction put in place by you cannot be considered as 'served'.

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Booooom
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 12:25
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 11:18) *
I'm still not 100% clear and would appreciate you presenting the facts as follows. (NB. in particular, I'm confused by your reference to form TE7 which is an application to file a witness statement out of time because neither the authority nor TEC would have any reason to send this???)

I live at address B.

Some mail has recently been re-directed to me from an address from which I moved out of many many years ago. Amongst the mail were a handfull of letters relating to a PCN (Offence date October 2018). Let's call this address A.

These are:
**** (name of notice and date of issue)
****(ditto)
*****((ditto)

To date I have not received any mail addressed to address B, if true.

Address B was entered into DVLA's register on *** (date) replacing address A.

So far your account uses the term 'received mail' synonymously with served, but they're not. Mail not addressed to you which reaches you other than by a mail re-direction put in place by you cannot be considered as 'served'.


The previous address to where the mail was sent belongs to my brother. I lived there until around 6 years ago. The tenants in occupation handed him the mail last Saturday after which he handed it to me. This is the only time I knew I had received a PCN. There was no mail redirection order in place. I don't know what form TE7 is and have never received anything relating to this at my current address

To the other question regarding the amount outstanding.... it is currently at £188.00

28th October is the acquired vehicle date on the V5.
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 12:31
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QUOTE (Booooom @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 09:33) *
Ok so just checked the V5 and address change date is 23 10 2018.

No. Look on page 2 fot 'docref'. What is date next to it?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Booooom
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 14:29
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05 11 18
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 14:48
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QUOTE (Booooom @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 15:29) *
05 11 18

Ok, so we're still in the realms of this not adding up, as Incandescent described.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Booooom
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 18:56
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (Booooom @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 15:29) *
05 11 18

Ok, so we're still in the realms of this not adding up, as Incandescent described.


Im assuming this is the date the address change was processed by DVLA??? Im unsure where to go with this
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 19:18
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QUOTE (Booooom @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 19:56) *
Im assuming this is the date the address change was processed by DVLA???

We think so, yes.

To understand your option of action, first go and read the OfR fully and tell us what you understand
from it.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Booooom
post Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 23:44
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 20:18) *
QUOTE (Booooom @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 19:56) *
Im assuming this is the date the address change was processed by DVLA???

We think so, yes.

To understand your option of action, first go and read the OfR fully and tell us what you understand
from it.


By OfR im assuming you mean the Order for recovery of unpaid charge .

From what i understand it is giving me the option of paying the outstanding amount by 17/03/2019 or file a witness statement on a form TE9 by the same date. I understand that i cant appeal the penalty charge but can ask for more time on some grounds. It does state on the OfR letter that a TE9 is enclosed. I cant remember if it was enclosed or if it was in another envelope. In any case as you can see I have a TE9.

As it has been through the court, I understand that it is an enforceable debt hence the bailiff letters.

I have attched the back of the OfR letter which i forgot to do earlier.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 26 Jun 2019 - 08:05
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I think we have all the facts which you need in order to submit an Out of Time application:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...of-time-parking

Download from the above.

This is one of those unfortunate situations where DVLA have amended their registered keeper records between the dates of issue of the PCN and NTO.

In this case the following apply:
Date of contravention and service of PCN: 5 October 2018;
Date DVLA register amended: 5 November 2018(clearly DVLA were in possession of this request prior to 5 November)
Date NTO 'served' on pre-amendment addressee: 19 November 2018 (the NTO was not actually found, but the Charge Certificate uses the term 'served' although this is more likely to be date posted);

See enclosed copy of the V5C and authority's Charge Certificate which evidence the above.

The following were hand-delivered to me by *** on ****:
****
****
****
(NB. the NTO was not one of these notices, but I presume it was served and addressed to the same address used by the authority in all subsequent notices i.e. the incorrect, pre-amended, address held by DVLA)

Due to the NTO and all subsequent notices being wrongly addressed (albeit unknown to the authority and arguably not the authority's fault), I did not receive the OfR in time and was unable to submit my witness statement as required. I therefore request that I be permitted to submit this out-of-time.

Is this the essence? Nothing to do with moving, do not even go there smile.gif
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Neil B
post Wed, 26 Jun 2019 - 10:07
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QUOTE (Booooom @ Wed, 26 Jun 2019 - 00:44) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 20:18) *
[quote name='Booooom' post='1495175' date='Tue, 25 Jun 2019 -
To understand your option of action, first go and read the OfR fully and tell us what you understand
from it.


From what i understand it is giving me the option of paying the outstanding amount by 17/03/2019 or file a witness statement on a form TE9 by the same date.

Yep, that's it.
But as we're beyond 17/3 you'll need to file TE7 as well.
HCA has linked you to it.

So now read what HCA has then said, draft a statement for TE7 and put it up here for us to check.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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