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PCN where no markings or signs in CPZ, If there’s no bay or sign, can I park here?
pitchy84
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 19:51
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Good evening,

First time I’ve ever received a PCN, and I’m presuming there’s not a case here.

This is Wapole Gardens, Twickenham. Recently, CPZ restrictions have been added on this road and surroundings ones. However, where I’m parked there is no bay or sign to say it’s part of the CPZ, so I’m presuming that’s fine to park in. I have done so on and off over the last few months, and this is the first time this has happened.

Attached is where I was parked and the PCN. I will of course appeal on the grounds there’s not any signage here to declare it part of the zone. Any further thoughts or wording I can use for this?

Cheers

This post has been edited by pitchy84: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 20:57
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post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 19:51
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Neil B
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 20:59
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Seen it before.

It's in a PPA I think.


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Neil B
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 21:19
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If this is the notice of the order, it reads a bit odd.

Got council pics?

This is the map.
Key says red hatched are.

I can't see one?

https://www.richmond.gov.uk/media/16463/str...inal_design.pdf


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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pitchy84
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 06:39
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 22:19) *
If this is the notice of the order, it reads a bit odd.

Got council pics?

This is the map.
Key says red hatched are.

I can't see one?

https://www.richmond.gov.uk/media/16463/str...inal_design.pdf


Would a video clip help? I did film the area of where I was parked.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 09:23
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I will of course appeal on the grounds there’s not any signage here to declare it part of the zone. Any further thoughts or wording I can use for this?


You probably have no case.

There are no markings or signs at the location - no point taking videos, no-one's going to argue that there were markings or signs- therefore we can presume the council's argument will be that no markings or signs are needed at the location.

And they would be correct if they had posted the necessary signs i.e. that you were in a 'permit parking area' and that the necessary signs were in place. The signs are not visible in the photos, but they don't need to be, so that's not a defence.

"permit parking area”
an area—
(a)into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and
(b)where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)


All you can do is challenge on the basis of what you can see i.e. no markings, no signs, therefore as far as you are concerned the contravention could not have occurred. In the challenge also include that after the fact you have taken advice and been advised about 'permit parking areas'. Should the authority claim that such a restriction applied then they must state exactly where the necessary signs are located.
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pitchy84
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 20:54
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 22:19) *
If this is the notice of the order, it reads a bit odd.

Got council pics?

This is the map.
Key says red hatched are.

I can't see one?

https://www.richmond.gov.uk/media/16463/str...inal_design.pdf


Council ones attached. I was always under the assumption that such zones would still need to mark out areas where it is safe to park? There isn't any signs going onto that part of Walpole Gardens that would suggest that the zone is at the beginning of the road as well. No bays are marked on both sides of the road as you enter from Spencer Road. The picture of the sign is further down the road on the bend.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 21:31
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As I posted, markings and signs are not required in a permit parking area.

Let's move on.

What and where is the sign you posted?

But get your challenge submitted. IMO, there is no point challenging whether a traffic order you've neither seen nor read establishes the restriction, this would be nothing more than a speculative assertion on your part. But you may challenge on the obvious point which is that it is the authority's burden to prove that the location was within a lawfully marked PPA.
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pitchy84
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 21:40
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 22:31) *
As I posted, markings and signs are not required in a permit parking area.

Let's move on.

What and where is the sign you posted?

But get your challenge submitted. IMO, there is no point challenging whether a traffic order you've neither seen nor read establishes the restriction, this would be nothing more than a speculative assertion on your part. But you may challenge on the obvious point which is that it is the authority's burden to prove that the location was within a lawfully marked PPA.


The location of sign is in the bay further down the road in the picture attached (which is the one the council submitted in previous post) Hopefully that's viewable in pic?

So with a challenge, its not to say there wasn't any markings or signs, but to ask for proof of where I was parked was part of the PPA?

This post has been edited by pitchy84: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 21:41
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Neil B
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 22:02
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Look at the map again.
Ignore my previous comment.

All of the roads marked light blue form the Permit Parking Area. No bays.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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pitchy84
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 22:38
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:02) *
Look at the map again.
Ignore my previous comment.

All of the roads marked light blue form the Permit Parking Area. No bays.


There is the bay marked green on that road on the map, which is where the sign belongs that the council posted. It doesn’t mention that’s apart of the CPZ/PPA on the sign however, would that account for anything?

On appeal, is it worth mentioning that i wouldn’t nornally park on street, but had to on this occasion as I wasn’t able to park at work (in a school) due to no free spaces?
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Neil B
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 00:05
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This is weird.

You raise some good points. The map seems to indicate marked shared use bays inside the PPA.
Fairly sure that isn't allowed. Certainly misleading.

Where exactly is the PPA POBTP sign in relation to your car and what way is it facing in relation
to your car?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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pitchy84
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 05:32
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 01:05) *
This is weird.

You raise some good points. The map seems to indicate marked shared use bays inside the PPA.
Fairly sure that isn't allowed. Certainly misleading.

Where exactly is the PPA POBTP sign in relation to your car and what way is it facing in relation
to your car?


I will need to go find the sign which would point out that I’m entering a PPA area, which I’m presuming is located on the T junction going onto Spencer Road from Pope’s Grove. I don’t recall any other signs, especially none turning left onto Walpole Gardens. That will need to wait until I’m back in London after the weekend (live in Hampshire). Was hoping that google street view may have been updated with new pictures of the area, but you can see with the shots why they’ve put the zone in!

This post has been edited by pitchy84: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 07:07
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