CEL in Town Quay Southampton, Parking charge in Permit only Options

[GenuineJ]

Hi everyone,
I have had success with fending off Parking Eye (funnily enough in the car park about 50 metres away from where CEL have a little area) in the past.
This time I have a problem though, I parked outside the casino during the day (when the casino is closed) it has about 18 spaces and I think I was the only car in there. I did a job at one of my customers a 20 second walk away. They told me I shouldn't park there because of tickets, I went back out and saw the signs so I registered my phone to them, tried paying etc It took about 15 minutes to do that and in the end it said 'Sorry you cannoy pay for parking in that area' then I noticed another sign saying Permit Only.
The problem mainly comes from the fact my car is leased. So they sent a PCN to the lease company who then took 3 weeks to forward it on to me (Probably with an admin fee no doubt).
I want to challenge the PCN in 2 ways, their authority to issue tickets as that means they have to show their contract with the land owners which they seem to not like doing. Then secondly because it is a Forbidding Contract being permit only with no way to pay.
If I do this, I will have to write my home address on it so their inevitable rejection letter can come straight to me instead of going through my lease company again and potentially getting me a second admin fee.
I don't want them to have my name or home address to be honest. What would be my best course of action, if it goes back and forth through my lease company I could end up paying way more to them than the PCN is worth (£100 lowered to £60 if paid within 14 days) I'm not sure what to do?
Thanks in advance for any advice given

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[Lynnzer]

Hi everyone,
I have had success with fending off Parking Eye (funnily enough in the car park about 50 metres away from where CEL have a little area) in the past.
This time I have a problem though, I parked outside the casino during the day (when the casino is closed) it has about 18 spaces and I think I was the only car in there. I did a job at one of my customers a 20 second walk away. They told me I shouldn't park there because of tickets, I went back out and saw the signs so I registered my phone to them, tried paying etc It took about 15 minutes to do that and in the end it said 'Sorry you cannoy pay for parking in that area' then I noticed another sign saying Permit Only.
The problem mainly comes from the fact my car is leased. So they sent a PCN to the lease company who then took 3 weeks to forward it on to me (Probably with an admin fee no doubt).
I want to challenge the PCN in 2 ways, their authority to issue tickets as that means they have to show their contract with the land owners which they seem to not like doing. Then secondly because it is a Forbidding Contract being permit only with no way to pay.
If I do this, I will have to write my home address on it so their inevitable rejection letter can come straight to me instead of going through my lease company again and potentially getting me a second admin fee.
I don't want them to have my name or home address to be honest. What would be my best course of action, if it goes back and forth through my lease company I could end up paying way more to them than the PCN is worth (£100 lowered to £60 if paid within 14 days) I'm not sure what to do?
Thanks in advance for any advice given

If the lease company sent you the PCN they shouldn't have.
They should have advised CEL who the hirer was with the name and address for them to send you a separate PCN.
I'd do nowt right now, unless you did actually get the ticket direct from CEL.
The liability stays with the hire company at this stage.. They should damn well know better.
You say you'll probably get an admin fee from them. You need to check the hire agreement and see what it says. The wording often overlooks private parking charges. If in doubt, get ready to dispute the payment they take from your card.

To put this straight: Look at PoFA on hire vehicles. It goes like this:
Where a rental car has incurred a parking charge and the registered keeper is therefore the car hire company. If keeper liability can be established under POFA, then the car hire company is liable for the parking charge. However, the hire car company ceases to be liable if, within the period of 28 days starting from when the notice to keeper was given, the hire care company provides the parking company with:
a) a statement signed by the car hire firm stating that, at the material time, the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; and
b) a copy of the hire agreement; and
c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. The statement of liability must:
- contain a statement by the hirer that the hirer acknowledges responsibility for any parking charges that may be incurred while the car is hired to the hirer;
- include an address given by the hirer (whether a residential, business or other address) as one at which documents may be given to the hirer;

If the car hire company can provide the above documents, then the hire company ceases to be liable for the charge, and the car park company must now chase the hirer named in the documents.

So if the hire company doesn't do it right the liability stays with them

This post has been edited by Lynnzer: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 20:14

[GenuineJ]

Thanks for the reply.
It does say in the original letter 'The purpose of this letter is to give you advance notice that we have made a representation to the parking operator thus allowing you time to review the details. The parking operator should now re-issue the parking charge notice to you for payment or appeal'
Bugger I never read that bit properly earlier, so that means they have probably already given out my name and home address and I should be receiving a letter from CEL any day now then.
Oh well if that is the case at least I can just argue againt it as I planned to anyway and have any future letters just directed straight to me instead.
Sorry I should have made that clearer in my first message

[ostell]

The lease company are obliged to send a copy of the PCN to the hirer at the same time as informing the PPC of the hirers ID. The lease company are also supposed to send copies of the lease document to the PPC. I believe there is an arrangement with the BVRLA that they don't need to supply the docs.

However, when you get a PCN as the hirer/keeper you will probably not get the required docs. You appeal as the hirer/keeper firstly that as the land is subject to byelaws then it is not relevant land for the purpose of keeper liability under POFA.

Failing that, if it was relevant land they have not complied with the requirements of POFA 14 (2) (a) and again the liability cannot be transferred away from the driver.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver and you will not be doing so.


Send the appeal so that it arrives on day 19 after the date on the letter in your own name. This is so they can't correct their error and send a compliant notice to be received within the relevant period of 21 days

[GenuineJ]

I wasn't sure about the byewlaws part as I saw a map of it on a pdf and it didn't look like a map of anything to be fair. I couldn't even see the town quay area on it.
So even if they send a letter to my house with my name on it I may still not be 'the driver' I could just be 'the hirer' is that what you are saying?

[nosferatu1001]

Yes, that is exactly what everyone si saying, and its the same in EVERY thread about hired or leased vehicles. Theyre literally ALL the same

ALL they know is who hired the vehicle. They have *no evidence* as to the identity of the driver.

[GenuineJ]

So been a while since I was here, I only just got the letter through to my house from CEL yesterday. Took them a while. Funnily enough the lease for that car has been terminated and they collected it on friday so would that help me further? At this point I don't even know if it is worth me replying or not? I guess they won't just give up and go away

[Southamptonadi]

I wasn't sure about the byewlaws part as I saw a map of it on a pdf and it didn't look like a map of anything to be fair. I couldn't even see the town quay area on it.
So even if they send a letter to my house with my name on it I may still not be 'the driver' I could just be 'the hirer' is that what you are saying?

pretty sure it's in, so they can only go after the driver.

change your op to the driver parked etc etc. dont want to give them any clues

[ostell]

Does this link help http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1496036

Send so it arrives on day 19 after the date of the letter so they can't reissue in time

[GenuineJ]

That seems like a good template to use, the only thing I would have to change is to say 'I was the hirer of the car at the time but not anymore' etc as it's gone now and god knows who has it.
Also... this is embarassing but how do I edit an original post?

[ostell]

There should be an edit button in the blue line at the bottom of the post

[GenuineJ]

No can't see anything, I thought I would be missing something simple. I'll have to load this in something other than firefox to see if it makes a difference
Edit: Ok just noticed I can edit the few posts I have done tonight but cannot edit the ones from a few weeks ago, is tehre a way to hide it?

This post has been edited by GenuineJ: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 - 21:44

[Sheffield Dave]

It only matters who the hirer was at the time of parking. That you are no longer the hirer is irrelevant.

[nosferatu1001]

You took too long to edit it, so ask a mod - hit REPORT and ask NICELY

[GenuineJ]

Just wanted to say a huge thank you for all the help on here, I followed the advice and actually to my surprise had a letter from them saying it's all been cancelled. Big Win for the little guy, thanks again