PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Ultra Low Emission Zone PCN (which came as a complete surprise)
gtahhh
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 00:26
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



Hello!

I got a PCN for the ULEZ on bank holiday Monday after having the presence of mind to check that the congestion charging wasn't in force! I was aware that there are emission rules but have never really thought they applied to my car. I'm OK in low emission zones but not ultra low (I've checked online). I imagine that this one is a 'fair cop' as I was completely oblivious (a) to any need to pay attention to these rules, and (b) any signs or other warnings as I was driving into the zone. Ignorance being no excuse, of course.

However, is there any hope of avoiding the £80 fine?

Thanks
-g



PS: given there is ANPR everywhere, why not simply allow road users to be able to register for any fees and tolls occurred nationwide to be billed after the event, thereby removing the need to fine those who've signed up? Could it be that they make more money this way? I bet there's a real spike in PCNs in the ULEZ on bank holidays.

This post has been edited by gtahhh: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 00:27
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 39)
Advertisement
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 00:26
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Earl Purple
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:11
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 972
Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Member No.: 39,245



I rarely take my car into the centre of London but did check just in case. I do more regularly take it inside the North Circular Road. I wonder if the various industrial and shopping estates based on the inner side of the North Circular Road will be exempted.

I do regularly bring my Vespa into the CC zone. There were some protests about the fact that some motorcycles are included in the ULEZ restriction. I have noticed how much easier it is to find a space to park now compared to last year.

Anyway, a lot of this discussion should be in Flame Pit.

With regards the OP:

1. Is it clear he entered a zone that was in force? Maybe, maybe not.
2. What to do having entered it? Not clear. It isn't a "must not enter" it is a situation of "if you enter, you may or may not need to pay a charge". I can say that whilst it may have been reasonably clear that you were entering a zone, it was not that clear whether it applied to you and what the implication would be.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:21
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 10:11) *
2. What to do having entered it? Not clear. It isn't a "must not enter" it is a situation of "if you enter, you may or may not need to pay a charge". I can say that whilst it may have been reasonably clear that you were entering a zone, it was not that clear whether it applied to you and what the implication would be.

It might seem like a nuance but I would say that the sign not only fails to spell out what the implications would be, it also fails to suggest that there might be any implications at all.

I remember from when I first started driving that, as you approach London, there are CC warning signs for 10+ miles outside of London, and there are big warning signs directing you to lay-bys where further information is available. I've never actually stopped at one of these but at the time it occurred to me that they had made a fair effort to bring the CC to the attention of motorists, especially as the signs in said lay-bys presumably tell you about the charge amount, how to pay, the hours and days of operation and so on. It's not clear they've bothered doing anything of the sort with the ULEZ and TFL's information campaign appears to be wholly London-centric, so anyone driving into town from the counties will have no clue.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:21


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 10:29
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 10:21) *
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 10:11) *
2. What to do having entered it? Not clear. It isn't a "must not enter" it is a situation of "if you enter, you may or may not need to pay a charge". I can say that whilst it may have been reasonably clear that you were entering a zone, it was not that clear whether it applied to you and what the implication would be.

It might seem like a nuance but I would say that the sign not only fails to spell out what the implications would be, it also fails to suggest that there might be any implications at all.

I remember from when I first started driving that, as you approach London, there are CC warning signs for 10+ miles outside of London, and there are big warning signs directing you to lay-bys where further information is available. I've never actually stopped at one of these but at the time it occurred to me that they had made a fair effort to bring the CC to the attention of motorists, especially as the signs in said lay-bys presumably tell you about the charge amount, how to pay, the hours and days of operation and so on. It's not clear they've bothered doing anything of the sort with the ULEZ and TFL's information campaign appears to be wholly London-centric, so anyone driving into town from the counties will have no clue.


Even dart charge, which cant be said to be the clearest has signs that say pay by midnight the next day,


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 22:35
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



Hello all, here's the text of my representations, which must be submitted by midnight on the 18th.

Max. 5000 chars; I have used 3700.

I can use either of these as a basis for my representation. I think that it may technically be the first one as the juction signage isn't compliant but perhaps the second is a safer choice?

  • The penalty charge exceeds the amount payable in the circumstances of the case, e.g. I have been requested to pay a penalty charge amount above that detailed in the regulations
  • Any mitigating circumstances you wish to raise


==========
Dear Sir/Madam

On the date of the alleged contravention I entered the ULEZ on Seymour Street. The signage at the boundary is not compliant with Road Traffic Regulations GT50/139/0171 issued by the Secretary of State covering the placement of signs to mark the boundary of the ULEZ.

Paragraph 4 (1) of this document says:

Without prejudice to any regulations made under paragraph 22 (1) (e) of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984; the authorised signs A and B shall be placed on or near any road in Greater London in sufficient numbers and in appropriate positions to indicate to all traffic entering the London Ultra Low Emission Zone the nature of the provisions of a Scheme.

The sign on the right side of the boundary, along with the Congestion Zone sign, is hidden behind the lamp unit and pole of a traffic light and both signs are almost completely out of view to the oncoming motorist.

The ULEZ sign on the left of this boundary is rotated 45 degrees or more away from the line of sight of the oncoming motorist, which both significantly reduces the surface area that can be seen, making the sign must less noticeable, and appears to suggests the sign intended for motorists coming from a different direction and for a boundary lying in a different orientation.

The hidden and rotated signs at this boundary mean that the requirements of para. 4 (1), namely that signs are in “...appropriate positions to indicate to all traffic…” has not been met.

Exhibit A - a photograph of the boundary that shows clearly the right hand signs are hidden to the motorist driving west to east on Seymour St.

Exhibit B - an annotated close up of the view in exhibit A

Exhibit C - a photograph of the left hand ULEZ sign from the north on Edgware road to show the extent to which this sign is rotated away from motorists approaching on Seymour St. Despite this sign being visible to motorists driving north to south on Edgware Rd. there is no ULEZ boundary straight ahead and so the sign should be ignored.

Additionally, and as importantly, neither signs of design A nor B as specified in GT50/139/0171 indicate to all traffic entering the London Ultra Low Emission Zone “the nature of the provisions of a Scheme”.

In fact nothing of the nature and provision of the scheme is mentioned on the signs. These signs say:

"ULEZ - Ultra low emission zone - at all times"

The text used on the sign does not indicate in any way there is a charge in some cases as there is no reference to 'Charge', 'Fee', or 'Payment' etc. This is in contrast to signs for the Congestion Charging Zone, or the Dartford crossing etc. where the requirement for the motorist to pay is clear.

The muted colour scheme and opaque wording that has been chosen is wholly inadequate.

Given the atypical colour scheme, it is arguable whether it is clear that this sign relates to road traffic and could be misunderstood to relate to some other form of emissions.

Finally, since 5th July 2018, I have been living in Australia, coming back to the UK for periods. If there has been a campaign where the details and meaning of “ULEZ” and “Ultra low emission zone” have been publicised to motorists in the UK, I have missed this.

Both the poor positioning and obscured signage at the particular junction and the inadequate wording used on the signs cause this ULEZ boundary to fall short of the standard set out in the Secretary of State’s directions. Therefore this penalty charge must be cancelled.

Please note that I will be in Australia from 28th June until the end of August and so will not be able to receive communication by post. You will be able to contact me by email: blah@blah.com.

Yours faithfully
First Last
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 22:56
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Is the car registered in your name? the TfL can only respond to the address held by DVLA so you giving them an e mail address won't help. You will need someone to open your mail from them scan it and email to you



--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:15
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



Are there any provisions for people who are out of the country? I assume not.

Any other comments on my text?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 14:35
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



I think you need to rely on regulation 18 of the The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/24...ulation/18/made

My emphasis:

18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;


I would focus on the fact that even if the signs comply with the SoS's authorisation, they do not convey adequate information about the effect of the order.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 17:40
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 15:35) *
regulation 18 of the [i]The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders

Is that applicable to TFL?

How should I weave that into my text?

Can I refer to this in addition to my the regulations that I cite?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 08:45
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Yes LATOR is applicable to TFL, and it is the main regulation you should cite. The others are a nice to have but they're not your central point. Your central point must be that the signs do not convey anything about having to pay. Have a go and if need be I'll tidy up your draft for you.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 08:45


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 13:04
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



I needed to submit by midnight last night, although I think that was only to stop the process with the £80 discounted fee option. I cited both LATOR and the other order, quoting the relevant text in both cases, then put my text that said that the signs didn't indicate the effect of the order or the nature of the provisions of a scheme under these citations. And that there was no mention of a charge etc.

These points plus the point that the signs are hidden on the right, and rotated of the left, I gave three reasons why the signs at the boundary I entered the zone by were not compliant.

Hopefully this is enough but to concede the signs aren't compliant will be a huge admission of failure.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 23:04
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



Hello again

I have now had my Notice of Rejection (NoR). It is copied in below. The punctuation, odd spacing and capitalisation and occasional 'å' characters are all verbatim. It correctly summarises the points I raised, then completely fails to take any of them into account. The NoR makes many references to signs at the boundary but fails to acknowledge that at this particular boundary, the signs are either turned or hidden and out of view. I am not sure if there are any ULEZ signs on the approach I took but I don't think so.

Do you think the adjudicator will consider the actual signage at this junction of follow TfL and simply insist that generally the signs are OK?

I was interested to see how much was made of ULEZ sharing a boundary with the Congestion Charging zone. At this boundary there is no left hand side CC sign and the right hand side sign is hidden. This makes it more likely that a motorist will miss that there's a boundary ahead.

Based on the circumstances of the alleged contravention, the evidence I have of the signs being hidden and inadequately designed, and the NoR text, what are the important points to highlight in my letter to the adjudicator?

-g

Notice of Rejection text - Date of notice: 01 August 2019

Notice of Rejection

Thank you for your recent representation against the above-mentioned Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) Penalty Charge Notice(s) (PCN) for vehicle registration mark AA11AAA.

In your representation you have stated that you have entered the ULEZ on seymour street. You have stated that the boundary is not complaint with the Road Traffic Regulations. You have stated that in paragraph 4 it stated that signs shall be placed in sufficient number to indicate traffic entering the ULEZ. You have stated that the sign along with the Congestion Charge (CC) is hidden behind the lamp and out of view of traffic. You have stated that the ULEZ is rotated and therefore motorists are unable to see this and therefore the road traffic regulation are not met. You have also attached evidence for this and have stated that these signs are not appropriate and confusing. You have stated that the signs say ULEZ ultra Low Emission Zone which is not compliant with the regulations as it does not indicate that a charge needs to be paid for. This is the opposite of CC or dartford charge where it clearly states that a fee needs to be paid for. You have stated that you have been living in australia and may have misunderstood some information and publicity due to being away. Finally, You have requested the PCN to be cancelled.

Your vehicle registration has been clearly captured travelling within the zone during charging hours. We have confirmed that the Evidential Record is accurate and the registration has been correctly interpreted by our camera systems. Our records show that the contravention location is within the boundary of the ULEZ.Motorists are made aware when they are about to enter the ULEZ as every entry road into the ULEZ has regulatory ULEZ signage in place. There are also signs to provide warning on the main approaches to the zone, which are placed to allow motorists time to take alternative routes to avoid entering the ULEZ. The signs are there not just to alert drivers on their first time within the zone, but also to remind anyone who travels regularly through the zone of the need to pay a ULEZ charge.

As the registered keeper of the vehicle it is your duty to make yourself aware of any charges, tolls or other restrictions that may be in existence along your route. We have made full information regarding the ULEZ including its boundary, operating hours and payment options, available through our Contact Centre and online at tfl.gov.uk/ulez, as well as running a public information campaign. As you therefore had an opportunity to make yourself aware the ULEZ charge was payable, we believe the PCN has been correctly issued.

The ULEZ was launched on the 8th April 2019 is operational for 24 hours a day every day of the year, including public holidays, and each charging day runs from midnight to midnight. It covers the central London area. It is a separate scheme to both the Congestion Charge and the Low Emission Zone (LEZ), the latter covering most of Greater London. An extensive advertising and publicity campaign has promoted the ULEZ scheme, its area of

operation, operating hours and emission standards all of which is also detailed on the ULEZ website, tfl.gov.uk/ulez.We enforce the ULEZ through the issue of PCN(s) in order to support the aims and objectives of the ULEZ scheme to improve air quality and reduce pollution. We promote compliance of the scheme and we consider we enforce the scheme in a fair and consistent manner.

The existence of the ULEZ has been well publicised in the media and through a range of advertising. We have made every effort to ensure that drivers of the most polluting vehicles are deterred from driving in the ULEZ area. The public consultation into the ULEZ commenced on 30 November 2017 and closed on 28 February 2018. Since that time and until the launch of the ULEZ on 8th April 2019, we ran an extensive ULEZ public information campaign, which sought to target those drivers who may be affected by the introduction of the scheme. This covered posters, the TfL transport system, petrol stations, on line, radio and newspapers both locally and nationally.As the registered keeper of the vehicle it is your legal duty to make yourself aware of any charges, tolls or other restrictions that may be in existence along your route, and ensure that you were not in contravention of them. We have made full information regarding the ULEZ and paying the charge available through our Contact Centre and website, tfl.gov.uk/ulez.

We have erected traffic signs at the points where vehicles enter the ULEZ. The entry signs are regulatory signs authorised by the Department for Transport (DfT) under sections 64 and 65 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 in DfT Authorisation GT50/139/0171. The DfT authorisation directs us to install entry signs on or near roads entering the ULEZ. Other signing placed at our discretion includes Advance Informatory signs around half a mile from the boundary and addition of the ULEZ symbol to Directional signing near the boundary. The signs placed around the ULEZ boundary support the Scheme Order.

We were involved in lengthy discussions with the DfT and other interested parties very early in the planning and implementation stages of the ULEZ. The design principles of the ULEZ sign followed that of the Low emission Zone. The type, size, layout and information content of the ULEZ signs was agreed with the DfT at the time. The signs for the ULEZ are designed to be consistent with the design principles and regulations attributed to the Congestion Charging signage and are placed alongside the existing Congestion Charging zone signs, to emphasise the difference in operational times between the two schemes. The ULEZ signs are supported by a lower panel to confirm the scheme applies 'At all times'.

Motorists will be aware when they are about to enter the ULEZ and cross its boundary as there are regulatory å Ultra Low Emission Zoneå entry signs at the side of every road that enters the ULEZ. They are placed in accordance with the DfT authorisation on or near the boundary. At least one entry sign has been placed on these roads unless they are private roads. Larger multi-lane roads generally have two signs. The number and location of the signs were considered carefully to ensure that a sign will be visible on all approaches to the entry.

We also gave consideration to the location of each boundary point and road layout and sought to rationalise the number of entry signs and attempt to limit the level of street clutter and visual intrusion. In all instances the signs have been placed to offer the most reasonable location identifiable at that site to offer as much visibility as possible and in some instances they have been co-located on the same poles as the Congestion Charging signs, given they share the same boundary.

There are also signs to provide warning on the main approaches to the zone, which are placed to allow motorists time to take alternative routes to avoid entering the ULEZ. The advance ULEZ signs are non-regulatory and have been provided to inform drivers that they are approaching the ULEZ.

We did not use road markings on the approaches, or at the entry, to the ULEZ. The entry signs, advance signs and directional signing were considered to provide sufficient warning to drivers. Unlike Congestion Charging, the DfT authorisation does not permit regulatory zone exit signs for the ULEZ because the ULEZ is a 24 hour scheme and does not have å controlled hourså in the same way as the Congestion Charging scheme or a controlled parking zone does. In such schemes an exit sign is required to outline when specifically the scheme applies during each day as drivers need to know, for example, if they have used and/or exited the zone outside of those controlled hours.

In addition, we continue to advertise and provide information regarding the ULEZ scheme to encourage awareness and compliance,. However, it remains the responsibility of the motorist to familiarise themselves with the regulatory road traffic signs, including ULEZ signs that they encounter while driving on the public highway.

We acknowledge that not all drivers will be familiar with the requirements of the ULEZ scheme however we considered there is sufficient information available to make drivers aware of how the scheme operates and the requirement to pay the charge. This is through reference to our website at tfl.gov.uk/ulez, our Contact Centre (Tel 0343 222 2222), the regulatory signs in place around the boundary, varying publicity which provides information relating to the scheme, emissions standards and how the charge can be purchased. The ULEZ charge can be purchased up to 64 days prior to the date of travel. Payment can also be made online at tfl.gov.uk/ulez, via our Contact Centre (Tel 0343 222 2222), by Auto Pay for registered customers, through our mobile app or by post. Postal payments must be received a minimum of 10 days before the date of travel. The charge can be paid by midnight of the next working day, but only online or via the Contact Centre.

When considering representations, we fully consider all the circumstances presented including any mitigating factors and whether it would be appropriate to apply discretion around the enforcement of the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). In this instance we have made the decision not to exercise that discretion. We do not consider that the mitigating factors present give reason to cancel the PCN. This is because no charge has been purchased for the VRM for the date of contravention. It is clear the PCN has been issued correctly.

We have to advise you, therefore, that grounds for representation have not been established and this letter is issued as a formal Notice of Rejection under the Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication) Regulations 2001 (as amended)

You should now make payment for the outstanding Penalty Charge Notices. The amounts owed are listed at the foot of this Notice. Please note those Notices at the discounted amount should be paid within 14 days to qualify for this discounted sum. These Notices will increase if not paid and then the full amount per Notice should be paid within 28 days. Those Penalty Charge Notices at the full amount should be paid within 28 days of service of this Notice.

You may appeal to a Road User Charging Adjudicator at London Tribunals, an independent adjudication service, against this decision on specified grounds within 28 days of the date of service of this letter. The adjudicator will consider your appeal and make an independent decision, which Transport for London will comply with.

If you wish to appeal to a Road User Charging Adjudicator at London Tribunals, please read, complete, sign and send the attached form within 28 days of the date of service of this letter to London Tribunals, PO Box 10598 Nottingham NG6 6DR.

You should be aware that in prescribed circumstances, the Adjudicator may award costs against you if the appeal is considered frivolous or vexatious or that making, pursuing or resisting of the appeal was wholly unreasonable. Equally costs may be awarded against Transport for London if the adjudicator considers that the disputed decision was wholly unreasonable.

If you do not follow any of the prescribed actions within 28 days of the date of service of this letter, a Charge Certificate may be issued. This increases the charge by 50% of the original amount. If the increased Penalty Charge Notice is not then paid, then Transport for London will apply to the County Court to recover the charges which will incur a further charge of £8 per Penalty Charge Notice.

PCN Number: XXXXXXXX Outstanding Balance: £80.00

HOW TO PAY
a). Credit/Debit card payments may be made ONLINE at: tfl.gov.uk/ulez
b). Credit/Debit card payments may be made BY TELEPHONE on 0343 222 3333
c). Payment can be made BY POST to: Ultra Low Emission Zone, PO Box 553, Darlington, DL1 9TZ

PLEASE DO NOT SEND CASH IN THE POST. All cheques/postal orders must be made payable to Transport for London and crossed "a/c payee". Please ensure your vehicle registration and Penalty Charge Number are written clearly on the back. Post-dated cheques will not be accepted.

Please note that receipts will not normally be issued for payments unless requested. If you have any questions please visit our website at tfl.gov.uk/ulez or contact us on 0343 222 3333.

Yours sincerely,
D. Milton
Contract and Operations Manager
Transport for London
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 18:38
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Post the document not a transcript, and also a copy of exactly what you sent by way of representation


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 08:35
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



Can anyone recommend a good service to post images. It seems Photobucket have started to blur my images.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 09:00
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (gtahhh @ Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 09:35) *
Can anyone recommend a good service to post images. It seems Photobucket have started to blur my images.



I use onedrive but imgur is often recommended


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 22:38
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



Hello all

Here is the text of my representation followed by a redacted scan of all pages of the NtO.

Representation text

Dear Sir/Madam

On the date of the alleged contravention I entered the ULEZ on Seymour Street.

The signage at the boundary is not compliant with Road Traffic Regulations GT50/139/0171 issued by the Secretary of State covering the placement of signs to mark the boundary of the ULEZ.

Paragraph 4 (1) of this document says:

“Without prejudice to any regulations made under paragraph 22 (1) (e) of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984; the authorised signs A and B shall be placed on or near any road in Greater London in sufficient numbers and in appropriate positions to indicate to all traffic entering the London Ultra Low Emission Zone the nature of the provisions of a Scheme.”

The sign on the right side of the boundary, along with the Congestion Zone sign, is hidden behind the lamp unit and pole of a traffic light and both signs are almost completely out of view to the oncoming motorist. The position of this sign is not appropriate.

The ULEZ sign on the left of this boundary is rotated 45 degrees or more away from the line of sight of the oncoming motorist, which both significantly reduces the surface area that can be seen, making the sign must less noticeable, and appears to suggests the sign intended for motorists coming from a different direction and for a boundary lying in a different orientation.

The hidden and rotated signs at this boundary mean that the requirements of para. 4 (1), namely that signs are in “...appropriate positions to indicate to all traffic…” has not been met.

Exhibit A - a photograph of the boundary from the point of view of a motorist entering the zone that shows clearly the right hand signs are hidden to the motorist driving west to east on Seymour St.

Exhibit B - an annotated close up of the view in exhibit A

Exhibit C - a photograph of the left hand ULEZ sign from the north on Edgware road to show the extent to which this sign is rotated away from motorists approaching on Seymour St. Despite this sign (marked with a red box) being clearly visible to motorists driving north to south on Edgware Rd. there is no ULEZ boundary straight ahead and the sign should be ignored by motorists travelling in this direction on Edgware Rd. The positioning of this sign is highly confusing and is not appropriate.

Neither signs of design A nor B as specified in GT50/139/0171 indicate to all traffic entering the London Ultra Low Emission Zone “the nature of the provisions of a Scheme”.

In fact nothing of the nature and provision of the scheme is mentioned on the signs. These signs say:

"ULEZ - Ultra low emission zone - at all times"

Additionally, the signage is not compliant with regulation 18 of the The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, which states:

“18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;”

The text used on the sign does not convey adequate information about the effect of the order to persons using the road.

The text used on the sign does not indicate there is a charge in some cases as there is no reference to 'Charge', 'Fee', or 'Payment' or other appropriate wording. This is in contrast to signs for the Congestion Charging Zone, or the Dartford crossing etc. where the requirement for the motorist to pay is clear.

The muted colour scheme and opaque wording that have been chosen are wholly inadequate.

Given the atypical colour scheme, it is arguable whether it is clear that this sign relates to road traffic and could be misunderstood to relate to some other form of emissions.

Finally, since 5th July 2018, I have been living in Australia, coming back to the UK for periods. If there has been a campaign where the details of meaning or effect of “ULEZ” and “Ultra low emission zone” have been publicised to motorists in the UK, I have missed this.

Both the poor positioning and obscured signage at the particular junction and the inadequate wording used on the signs cause this ULEZ boundary to fall short of the standard set out in the Secretary of State’s order GT50/139/0171 and The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. Therefore I request that this penalty charge is cancelled.

Please note that I will be in Australia from 28th June until the end of August and so will not be able to receive communication by post. You will be able to contact me by email: blah@email.com.

Yours faithfully
XXXXXXX

Redacted scan of all pages of the NtO









Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Mon, 26 Aug 2019 - 16:37
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



Hello, does anyone have comments on my representation text? Should I amend this for the adjudicator? (I'll fix the typos I've spotted.)

The deadline for submission of this is 28 days from the service of the notice, which was 1st Aug. Two days after that is Sat 3rd Aug, so I think the date of service was Mon 5th Aug. That means I must get my letter to the Adjudicator by Monday 2nd Sept.

Before I send my appeal text, now that I'm back in the country, I plan to check if there are any ULEZ signs on the approach to the boundary in question.

Any wise words before I complete and post the form?

Thanks
-g
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 27 Aug 2019 - 12:02
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



I don't think you can add much to what you've said, but personally I would recommend you attend the tribunal in person so you can explain to the adjudicator that the signs did not alert you to the need to pay anything.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Tue, 27 Aug 2019 - 13:11
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



Thank you.

I will definitely go as I had a similar situation some years where I thought it was an open and shut case with a missing sign and approach markings for the CCharge where the decision went against me. I think had I have been there it might have been different.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtahhh
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 23:29
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,452



I attended an adjudicator hearing last week and have just had the ruling. The adjudicator appeared very sympathetic and seemed to agree that the hidden and rotated signage was poor. However, the adjudicator found in favour of the TfL. I enclose the adjudicator's decision letter below.

Some thoughts on the decision:
  • The decision failed to mention (in para 7 and elsewhere) the fact that the right hand CCharge and ULEZ signs were hidden behind a traffic light unit and post; this is the most obvious defect with the boundary signage so clearly it should have been considered.
  • Para 6: why has he mentioned that 'most left turns from Edgware road heading north to south go into the ULEZ and Congestion Zone? I wasn't driving in this direction and so this seems irrelevant. It feels like he's added this to support his points in para 12.
  • Para 11 seems like a circular argument. As the SoS has authorised the signs, they must be OK. He also extends this point to say simply by authorising the signage design, the signs must there be placed in appropriate positions in this case!
  • Para 12: This is where the hidden sign should be considered. I don't really no where to start here! It describes a behaviour that no one would ever do, ie, checking every journey for any permanent or temporary restrictions before heading out. He also makes the even dafter point that I might see some ULEZ signs subsequently and somehow connect these back to a junction I'd passed days before where the signs were hidden and then think that that junction might be subject to ULEZ restrictions. I did not see "the immediate signs" because they were rotated more than 45 degs away from me on the left and the right sign was hidden. The corollary of his argument is that signs aren't really needed at all as motorists should check restrictions before setting out (and then perhaps again after the journey!).
  • Also in para 12 he mentions the advance signs identified by TfL that I should have taken notice of. There are no advance signs! On my way to the hearing I walked the ~mile to the junction in question to check for any ULEZ advance signs along the route I drove. There are none.

By way of a sanity check, I stopped three passers by at the junction and asked them to consider the left hand ULEZ sign and tell me which lane of traffic it was intended for, those driving N to S on Edgware road or those driving W to E on Seymour St. (the direction I was driving) The first person said neither lane! When pressed and I said he had to pick one, he said N to S on Edgware Road. The other two were unequivocal and said N to S on Edgware Road. 3 out of 3 thought the sign was for the other lane which doesn't enter the ULEZ!

Regardless of the points about sign design, and just considering that the left sign is rotated and the right side sign is hidden, you have a situation where I'm paying a fine for a boundary that's effectively not marked. How can that be reasonable?

Am I able to appeal the decision?

-g











Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 08:02
Post #40


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,915
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



You can request a review. Reason - "in the interests of justice". It does seem clear that London Tribunals have been "got at" in some way, when an adjudicator completely ignores the main element of the appeal.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 18:33
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here