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Bus Lane PCN Manchester Oxford Street (Whitworth Street West to Chepstow Street)
Manc1
post Fri, 31 May 2019 - 21:54
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Hi All,
I received a PCN couple of days back (28/05/19) for a bus lane contravention turning from Whitworth Street onto Oxford Street in Manchester. I didn't notice the signage (which is poor) untill i turn left into oxford street. Also my sat nav took me via this road, i noticed in the cctv image and Google Street View that there is no Red highlighted Bus Lane marking but they marked as Bus gate also spotted one very poor, minimal sign on Whitworth Street approach to junction

detection date: 23/05/19
PCN posting: 28/05/19
Contravention: Bus Lane - Oxford Street (Whitworth Street West to Chepstow Street)

The Penalty charge of £60.00 must be paid before the end of the period 28 days begining with the date of service of this notice and will be reduced by one half £30.00 if paid before the end of the period 14 days begining with the date of serice of this notice.

Can someone please help me where do i start with an appeal? Can anybody point me towards a good letter to help with this? I really have no idea what to do at all.

Any help would be appreciated, thank you.

https://imgur.com/a/lM09gzm - Copy of the PCN uploaded here.

https://imgur.com/a/lM09gzm

This post has been edited by Manc1: Fri, 31 May 2019 - 21:56
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post Fri, 31 May 2019 - 21:54
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 31 May 2019 - 22:13
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Every appeal we have seen has won because of the signage and the decision of the deputy chief adjudicator

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtBHPhdJdppVqkNx3g8q3GPKWApV


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cp8759
post Fri, 31 May 2019 - 22:16
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QUOTE (Manc1 @ Fri, 31 May 2019 - 22:54) *
Can someone please help me where do i start with an appeal? Can anybody point me towards a good letter to help with this? I really have no idea what to do at all.

Just tell them the signage is pants as per Watkin and others v Manchester City Council (MC01044-1808, 29 January 2019) and the penalty must be cancelled. They will reject, you then appeal to the tribunal and the tribunal will order them to cancel. We've won every case so far since that decision came out.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Manc1
post Fri, 31 May 2019 - 23:15
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 31 May 2019 - 23:16) *
QUOTE (Manc1 @ Fri, 31 May 2019 - 22:54) *
Can someone please help me where do i start with an appeal? Can anybody point me towards a good letter to help with this? I really have no idea what to do at all.

Just tell them the signage is pants as per Watkin and others v Manchester City Council (MC01044-1808, 29 January 2019) and the penalty must be cancelled. They will reject, you then appeal to the tribunal and the tribunal will order them to cancel. We've won every case so far since that decision came out.


Thanks Both,
@cp8759, Can i use the below draft and send it to council?

I submit that the alleged contravention did not occur, due to inadequate signage. I do not dispute that the signs employed by the council comply with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, but I aver that the signs nonetheless fail to adequately convey the restrictions.

On the evening of the alleged contravention i was travelling along Whitworth Street and turned left onto Oxford Street, it is my contention that the signage, when approached from this direction of travel, is inadequate and fails to meet the requirements of regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 which provides, in so far as is relevant, that:

"Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b) the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force"

While there are advance warning signs along Whitworth street, these signs do not convey the restrictions provided for the the Traffic Regulation Order, furthermore advance warning signs do not create any restriction as such, restrictions are only conveyed by regulatory signs placed at, or as close as possible to, the point where the restrictions commence.

The regulatory signs installed by the council face traffic travelling along Oxford Street, and are not visible to traffic turning left onto Oxford Street from Whitworth Street until a motorist has already committed to the turn. The following image illustrates the visibility of the regulatory signs for traffic travelling from Whitworth Street:


The regulatory signs on Oxford Street convey that a "no motor vehicles" restriction is in force from 6 am to 9 pm, except for buses, taxis and permit holders. There are no signs on Whitworth street that accurately convey this restriction and even if a motorist turning left were to see the signs on Oxford Street, it would by then be far too late to take an alternative route: reversing or performing a u-turn in the middle of a busy junction is not a real option and it may well open up the driver to prosecution from the police for driving without due care and attention.

For the contravention to occur, the motorist must have a lawful route open to him that allows him to avoid committing the contravention, at the point in time when he is given adequate notice of what the restrictions actually are. There is no burden on motorists to avoid taking a route on the off-chance that taking a particular route might be subject to certain unknown restrictions at some point further along the road. The situation might be different if the advance warning signs on Whitworth Street adequately conveyed the restrictions provided for in the Traffic Regulation Order, but that is not the case in this instance.

Furthermore, if the council contends that there is no requirement for the actual nature and timings of the restrictions to be properly conveyed to motorists travelling from Whitworth Street, this is tantamount to suggesting the contravention can be sustained on the basis of the advance warning signs alone, i.e. it would be a contravention to turn left from Whitworth Street and travel north along Oxford Street even if there were no regulatory signs at all on Oxford Street, clearly this cannot be right. But it also cannot be right for the contravention to be based on signage which a motorist wouldn't be able to see until he has already committed to turning left into Oxford Street.

One has to ask, if the restrictions are adequately conveyed, how would the driver of an exempt vehicle, such as a taxi driver who was delivering a customer to Manchester from a different city, know that the exemption applies and turning left onto Oxford Street is permitted? The simple answer is the driver would have no notice of the exemption, and he would have to either, out of an abundance of caution, drive straight ahead, or turn left and take the risk (at that point unknowable to him) that he might commit a contravention. This sort of ambiguity cannot have been what Parliament intended when it spoke of "securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road".

Therefore because the signage employed by the highways authority does not adequately convey the nature and timing of the restrictions to motorists turning left from Whitworth Street, and because no regulatory signs are visible to motorists turning left from Whitworth Street until it it too late to take an alternative route, the Highways Authority has failed to discharge its duties under regulation 18 above and the alleged contravention did not occur.

As per Watkin and others v Manchester City Council, (MC01044-1808, 29 January 2019) the penalty must be cancelled
Please let me know your comments on this.


Thanks.

This post has been edited by Manc1: Fri, 31 May 2019 - 23:16
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 20:59
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I see you've found one of my original drafts for this location, yes you can use that it's still good.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Manc1
post Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 22:24
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 21:59) *
I see you've found one of my original drafts for this location, yes you can use that it's still good.



Thanks cp8759,

Yes i found one of your drafts while i was searching in this forum.

I will send my draft to council today and let you know the results.


Thanks
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Manc1
post Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 22:41
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QUOTE (Manc1 @ Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 23:24) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 21:59) *
I see you've found one of my original drafts for this location, yes you can use that it's still good.



Thanks cp8759,

Yes i found one of your drafts while i was searching in this forum.

I will send my draft to council today and let you know the results.


Thanks



Appeal sumitted today and got below email.

"Thank you for your appeal against a Bus lane which we received on 02/06/2019. Your case will be passed to an officer to review and you should receive a reply within 21 working days.

If you have not received a response within 21 working days, please email representations@manchester.gov.uk, quoting your Penalty Charge Notice (ticket number) the 8 digit reference number starting "MC" and the date you submitted the appeal".

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Manc1
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 19:59
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Hello cp8759 & PASTMYBEST,
After submtting my appeal via online i haven't received any reply from them and its been past 21 days but today i have received a CHARGE CERTIFICATE from manchester city council asking me to pay £ 90.00. It says this Charger Certificate has been issued and served by the council because this penality charge has not been paid before the end of the relevant period. But i have submitted my appeal via council and i have received email from council that they have received my email and it will take 21 days.

Do you think council ignored my appeal and send me this Charge Certificate? I have also not received Notice To Owner (nto) they just send me the charge certificate straight away.

Letter also says if the payment is not payed before the end of the period of 14 days action will be taken by the council to recover the increased charge through the county court.

Please advise me on this who i do need to contact from here, can i call the council on the number given in the letter?

Thanks.

Letter from Council received today - https://imgur.com/a/x3sqUzq


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Incandescent
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 20:34
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This is a postal PCN case, so no Notice to Owner is issued. When you submitted your reps on-line did you give an address ? Legally, if they reject your reps, they must reply in writing, an email response is not allowed. The Charge Certificate is sent to the name and address on your V5C registration document for your car.

You cannot appeal a CC, so you must now wait for them to send an Order for Recovery, at which point you can submit a Statutory Declaration that you did not receive a Notice of Rejection of Representations. The matter is then reverted to the original PCN stage when you can submit reps again, or pay-up.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 20:34
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The cheeky bugg*rs seem to be doing this quite a lot. Don't worry if you have confirmation of receipt of representations. The next letter you will/should receive will be entitled order for recovery. When you get that you can submit a statutory declaration to the effect that you made representations and did not receive a response The Charge certificate will be revoked and the council will have to refer to the adjudicator for direction. You will in all likelihood be invited to appeal to the tribunal and the council will not contest. But whatever you should apply for costs


have a search on the forum for other M/cr bus lane case you will find a few where they have done this



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cp8759
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 21:24
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If you want to read up on the process, go to https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/w...ess-statements/ and scroll half way down the page to "Statutory Declarations", ground 2 is the one that applies to you.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Manc1
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 22:27
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 22:24) *
If you want to read up on the process, go to https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/w...ess-statements/ and scroll half way down the page to "Statutory Declarations", ground 2 is the one that applies to you.



Thanks cp8759, ASTMYBEST & Incandescent.

Now i need to wait for my next letter order for recovery before i do anything? How long does it take for them to send that letter?

I will search for M/cr bus lanes in this forum and cp8759 thanks for the link. I will have a look.

Thanks.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 22:30
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It could take a while. What Manchester are doing is playing chicken, they hope you will get scared and pay


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Manc1
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 23:28
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 23:30) *
It could take a while. What Manchester are doing is playing chicken, they hope you will get scared and pay


Thanks PASTMYBEST,

i will wait for the letter order for recovery and will action accordingly.
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Manc1
post Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 21:40
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Hi All,
I have received 2 letters from Manchester city council this week 1 letter with reduced amount to £30.00 has to be paid no later than 6th July 2019 but they send this letter on 23rd July so i passed the deadline.

2nd letter is threating letter "unpaid Penalty Charge Notice warning your case is to be registered as a Debit at the county court" asking me to pay £90.00 within 7 days. A Warrant of Execution will then be issued to Bailiffs, who will undertake recovery action, which includes powers to seize your goods, including your vehicle, to recover the debit and any additional Bailiff fees.

Not sure why they saying the amount is reduced to £30.00 in 1 letter and in other letter asking me to pay £90.00. Do i need worry about this debt county court threating letter?

I am still waiting for order for recovery which gives me an oppurtunity to file a stauatory Declaration, can i do that when i receive warrant of Execution from Bailiffs or Debt from county court?

https://imgur.com/a/OQ0jv2g - Both letters from council.

This post has been edited by Manc1: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 21:53
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 22:00
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post all the letters


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Manc1
post Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 22:29
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 23:00) *
post all the letters




https://imgur.com/a/OQ0jv2g - Both letters from council.

Both letters uploaded in the below link

https://imgur.com/a/OQ0jv2g

Thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 28 Jul 2019 - 00:13
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QUOTE (Manc1 @ Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 23:29) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 23:00) *
post all the letters




https://imgur.com/a/OQ0jv2g - Both letters from council.

Both letters uploaded in the below link

https://imgur.com/a/OQ0jv2g

Thanks



Just bluster that to me reinforces my belief that they are acting deliberately in order to try and scare you into paying. Just wait for the order for recovery


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cp8759
post Sun, 28 Jul 2019 - 15:57
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 28 Jul 2019 - 01:13) *
Just wait for the order for recovery

+1


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Manc1
post Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 22:13
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Jul 2019 - 16:57) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 28 Jul 2019 - 01:13) *
Just wait for the order for recovery

+1



Thank you both,

I will wait for the Order for recovery. Hope they dont send me debit county letter straight instead of Order for recovery.
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