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N244, notice sent to old address, daylight robbery
markdown
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 21:45
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So I am in the following situation:

on the 15th august 2018 i apparently committed the offence of being in a bus lane.

i moved out of my previous residence on 7th august and into my current one on the 16th august.
i informed the dvla of this change during this period(not sure exact date) and recieved an updated driving license with the new address dated 16th august.

on 15th march 2019 i recieved a notice of enforcement from jbw to my current address, telling me i owed £173. this is the first I became aware any offence had been committed.

i filed a statuary declaration out of time and a few days back recieved a letter from the courts and tribunals services informing me that my out of time was refused. No reason was given why and to appeal this, it is £100/£255(with judge), plus it states there is the possibility of further costs being awarded against me.

I still have not recieved anything directly from the council in regards to the offence. On the letter from the courts and tribunals service it states:
"the response from the local authority with regards to your out of time application should already have been served to you.", which I've not recieved(presumably they are still posting to the old address).

What would be the advice given this situation?
I'm intending to challenge this given I am not in the wrong, but the threat of mounting legal fees is a little daunting.

I also want to understand any technicalities that could potentially be used against me.

1. If the change of address was requested on the 16th august, where do I stand as the offence was committed on the 15th? I don't know the date the notice of the offence was posted, but assuming it wasn't on the same date of the offence, should the address the notice was posted to, be the address at the date of the offence or the address at the time of posting?

2. after this initial notice, the address should have been updated and any further correspondence should have been sent to the correct address. I'm not sure what the procedure is if they don't get a reply back to the initial letter, but surely any correspondence after that should have been sent to my current address.

Thanks for any help.

This post has been edited by markdown: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 21:48
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post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 21:45
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stamfordman
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:03
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Ok - go get your V5C car reg doc and check the address, presuming it's your car and registered to you. That address is where all the documents will have gone to until bailiffs find you.

Your driving licence has nothing to do with any car.

If you did update the V5C as you are legally obliged to do there will be a date saying when it was done in several places on it.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:04
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:07
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You will not receive anything from the council. The bailiffs are their agents now. If you did not update your v5c you do not have many options


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Neil B
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:12
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We (you) need >
QUOTE (markdown @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:45) *
recieved a letter from the courts and tribunals services informing me that my out of time was refused.

Date?

Date of the PCN - from council

Your PE2 submissions

The 'docref' date on your V5C

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:07) *
You will not receive anything from the council.

A copy of the objection is a requirement of the TEC Users CoP and he should query its absence.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:40


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:28
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Ah ok, looks like I might have to cough up in that case :-(

I've checked the V5, the address was updated on 28th august 2018 (this is the date next to document ref no).
I don't actually know the date the pcn was supposed to have been posted, but assuming it was before the 28th, I don't have a leg to stand on?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:32
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QUOTE (markdown @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:28) *
Ah ok, looks like I might have to cough up in that case :-(

I've checked the V5, the address was updated on 28th august 2018 (this is the date next to document ref no).
I don't actually know the date the pcn was supposed to have been posted, but assuming it was before the 28th, I don't have a leg to stand on?



Looks like you did everything right and the out of time should have succeeded if you had said so - this is well within bounds of a move if PCN was 15 August.

But as you only owe £173 it may not be worth pursuing this now - others will advise.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:33
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Neil B
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:35
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QUOTE (markdown @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:28) *
Ah ok, looks like I might have to cough up in that case :-(

WTF ?
You have a good case. We're just gathering info; something you keep telling us you've failed to do so far.

QUOTE (markdown @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:45) *
I don't know the date the notice of the offence was posted,



QUOTE (markdown @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:28) *
I don't actually know the date the pcn was supposed to have been posted,



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 22:35
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QUOTE (markdown @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:28) *
Ah ok, looks like I might have to cough up in that case :-(

I've checked the V5, the address was updated on 28th august 2018 (this is the date next to document ref no).
I don't actually know the date the pcn was supposed to have been posted, but assuming it was before the 28th, I don't have a leg to stand on?


If you updated the v5c that promptly you have a reason to file a n244. You must have sent the v5c fairly promptly or even if done online 2 weeks is not unreasonable


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markdown
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:00
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ok, sorry i just assumed the 28th august would be the date I requested the change of address and if the pcn was posted before that date, I would be liable!

So i guess the next thing would be to find out the date the pcn was posted?
If so, I'll ring the council tommorrow and try to get that info!

now that i think about it, is it possible the out of date might have failed as the only evidence i provided in regard to my change of address was my driving licence and not my v5 logbook?
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Neil B
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:02
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QUOTE (markdown @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 00:00) *
So i guess the next thing would be to find out the date the pcn was posted?
If so, I'll ring the council tommorrow and try to get that info!

No, that's tomorrow.

The next thing is answer my very simple first question

and show us your PE2

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:03


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:07
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QUOTE (markdown @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 00:00) *
ok, sorry i just assumed the 28th august would be the date I requested the change of address and if the pcn was posted before that date, I would be liable!

So i guess the next thing would be to find out the date the pcn was posted?
If so, I'll ring the council tommorrow and try to get that info!

now that i think about it, is it possible the out of date might have failed as the only evidence i provided in regard to my change of address was my driving licence and not my v5 logbook?


undoubtedly. Because a council can object to an out of time, They invariably do, and when they do refusal seems to be automatic.

See what Neilb has to say. The biggest issue to me is that the fee for the n244 is not usually recoverable, so you would be putting up £100 to save at best £73


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markdown
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:10
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 00:02) *
QUOTE (markdown @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 00:00) *
So i guess the next thing would be to find out the date the pcn was posted?
If so, I'll ring the council tommorrow and try to get that info!

No, that's tomorrow.

The next thing is answer my very simple first question

and show us your PE2


hey, so the date of the letter from the courts and tribunals services informing me that my out of time was refused is dated 9th may 2019.

I'm just about to upload my pe2
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Neil B
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 00:07) *
The biggest issue to me is that the fee for the n244 is not usually recoverable,

Apart from a local DJ once awarding it, there is no recovery because no one ever tries: Too
relieved at saving bailiff fees.
The council objection is paramount in any claim for reimbursement of N244 fees.

But we're all talking bollox until he answers my one simple question. < edit: my apologies! biggrin.gif

QUOTE (markdown @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 00:10) *
hey, so the date of the letter from the courts and tribunals services informing me that my out of time was refused is dated 9th may 2019.

Deadline for N244 27th.

We'll play safe and call it 24th as TEC are iffy on DoS of notices.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:17


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:21
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I'm having trouble uploading the PE2 as an attachment, have uploaded to 3rd party site:

https://postimg.cc/MM4GMmR6
https://postimg.cc/kRbgxRFx

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Neil B
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 23:35
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QUOTE (markdown @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 00:00) *
now that i think about it, is it possible the out of date might have failed as the only evidence i provided in regard to my change of address was my driving licence and not my v5 logbook?

The evidence you supplied of both tenancies should have been enough imo.

You need that copy of the council objection.
Remind them of their obligations I mentioned in post #4.

Make it clear that you need this in order to make an application to a court of law
- and you have been advised to take the name of anyone who obstructs you.

Calmly and politely.

--
Your N244 looks easy so far but this will help further.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Thu, 16 May 2019 - 08:59
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Ok thanks for the all help so far guys! So just got in contact with Manchester City Council and here are the dates of all communications that were sent:

20th August 2018: PCN sent
26th September: Charge Certificate sent
11th October: Pre Debt letter sent
17th December: Order for Recovery sent

All of these were sent to my previous residence.

Besides the initial pcn, which was the address the v5 logbook would have been under, surely all the subsequent communications should have sent to my new address?
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stamfordman
post Thu, 16 May 2019 - 09:13
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QUOTE (markdown @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 09:59) *
Besides the initial pcn, which was the address the v5 logbook would have been under, surely all the subsequent communications should have sent to my new address?


Why?
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markdown
post Thu, 16 May 2019 - 09:21
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 10:13) *
QUOTE (markdown @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 09:59) *
Besides the initial pcn, which was the address the v5 logbook would have been under, surely all the subsequent communications should have sent to my new address?


Why?



are you suggesting that all commuications should have been sent to my previous address??

since the address in the logbook was updated on the 28th august, anything posted before that date would have been sent to previous address, and any communication posted after that date should have been sent to the updated address....

This post has been edited by markdown: Thu, 16 May 2019 - 09:22
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stamfordman
post Thu, 16 May 2019 - 09:35
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QUOTE (markdown @ Thu, 16 May 2019 - 10:21) *
since the address in the logbook was updated on the 28th august, anything posted before that date would have been sent to previous address, and any communication posted after that date should have been sent to the updated address....



Nope - the council asks for the address once from DVLA. The idea of the out of time process is to protect you from a narrow window when you move or sell a car up to the point the V5C gets updated in reasonable time.

In your case the council should not have opposed it depending on what you said on the form - they will mostly oppose when it's your fault for not updating V5C.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 16 May 2019 - 09:36
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John U.K.
post Thu, 16 May 2019 - 09:36
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QUOTE
since the address in the logbook was updated on the 28th august, anything posted before that date would have been sent to previous address, and any communication posted after that date should have been sent to the updated address....


I think I'm right in saying Councils are allowed one crack at getting the V5 address from DVLA.

Bonkers, but that's the system, and often leads to grief.
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