PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Ticket Outside home due to Bike Shed installation., E17
zee aze
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:21
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 440
Joined: 24 Sep 2014
From: london
Member No.: 73,201



Hi Guys,

A family member received a ticket on 10th April 2019 due to an installation of a bike shed.

He parked outside his home on the evening before on the 9th April and so did not see the sign when parking as usual. Only until the morning he noticed the ticket on his car and noticed the sign of no parking from the 10th April to 12th April.

Does he have grounds to appeal this?











This post has been edited by zee aze: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:22


--------------------
You need to fight like a cornered tiger
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 12)
Advertisement
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:21
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Incandescent
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 07:53
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,397
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



With the notice only a few feet from his car, it would be difficult to argue it was not visible. However, he parked on the 9th, and the suspension started 08.00 on the 10th. When did the sign get put up ? When suspension signs are put up, most councils take a list of cars already there. Second aspect is - does the PCN contain any fatal errors ?
So, submit informal reps based on the sign not being seen when the car was parked, and query when it was put up. PCNs with errors can win but usually only at adjudication (London Tribunals) with the full penalty in play.

Also wait a bit to see what the others say.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 08:27
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24,633
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



OP, you have no first-hand knowledge of events, the driver being a 'family member'.

Well, either they or the council are being economical with the truth!

The suspension sign states: displayed from 29 March', therefore 'He parked outside his home on the evening before on the 9th April and so did not see the sign when parking as usual.' is not really the issue, is it? It's why they didn't see the sign for 2 weeks.

Anyway, although the parking place is not separated into individual bays, and therefore there are no 'bays' outside nos. 5&7, the photo shows a significant part of the car was clearly outside no. 7.

The photo also shows NO suspension sign on the nearest traffic sign, which is outside no.13.

As a minimum, the driver should challenge the authority on this point:

As regards permanent traffic signs at the location, there is one situated o/s 13 and another o/s no.3. The traffic sign which I had passed before parking was the one o/s 13, but as the authority's own photo shows a suspension sign was not erected thereon. Instead I can now see that the authority are relying on a non-standard (it did not include wings) sign placed on a tree.
Given that my responsibility is to check traffic signs, this places a similar duty on the authority to erect suspension signs on the nearest relevant traffic sign. Having not seen any suspension notice on this traffic sign, I felt free to park and not under any duty to check elsewhere, not that I would expect to find traffic restriction-related signs on a tree.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 10:29
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,195
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Wot HCA said.
No sign on the normal restriction posts, entitled to rely on them.
The one on the tree is fine but they cannot instigate two separate signage systems and expect any motorist to play hunt the sign.
Even if it was next to the car, could have been a poster for a local rave.
The normal restriction signs must have a suspension sign on them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
zee aze
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 02:23
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 440
Joined: 24 Sep 2014
From: london
Member No.: 73,201



Hi Guys

This is the reply. Please feel free to edit/critique before its sent off on Tuesday...

-------------------------------

Dear Council,

I can confirm that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question and also live at Number XXX Second Avenue, Walthamstow, London.
I am refuting this ticket based on the following:

Permanent Parking Signs: There are permanent parking permit restriction signs outside No.3, No.13 and No.16 on my road. When parking I passed the Normal parking permit signs outside No.13 and No.16 but the photos that the traffic officer took shows no suspension signs erected. Instead I can see that the he relied on non-standard (does not include wings) signs placed on a Tree.
Given that my responsibility is to check traffic signs, this places a similar duty on the council to erect suspension signs on the nearest relevant traffic sign. Having not seen any suspension notice on this traffic sign, I felt free to park and not under any duty to check elsewhere, not that I would expect to find traffic restriction-related signs on a tree.

Lack of signs: I believe there was a lack of signs which would indicate there was a bike shed being installed on a certain date. According to the photos there was only one sign displayed outside House No.7 on a Tree. There were No other signs displayed anywhere else on the road that indicated that a bike shed would be installed on the 10th April. I parked on the evening of the 9th April and I did not see any other signs leading to my home that a bike shed would be installed. I believe that only 1 sign on a road is not enough to indicate this installation. Due to living on this road for over 30 years I have seen many posters on Trees such as advertisements. The sign displayed on the Tree could have been a normal advertisement. Normally when there is a parking suspension on Second Avenue there has always been adequate signage displayed throughout the road indicating a parking suspension but this was not the case for the Bike shed installation.

No Letters Sent to indicate Bike shed Installation: At no point previous or after the tree signage I was sent any letters/emails/newsletter to indicate that there was a bike to be installed on my road. Please clarify the procedure of notification to residents.

Suspension Sign: The sign displayed only displays No Loading. If there was a suspension of parking, then there should be Normal Restriction signs of Parking Suspension.
Parking Bays: There are No parking bays on Second Avenue which indicate which number house you are parked outside. There was a significant part of my car parked outside No.9 which was outside the parking restriction. I believe without the parking bays it is difficult to determine which cars are parked outside which house.


--------------------
You need to fight like a cornered tiger
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
zee aze
post Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 16:46
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 440
Joined: 24 Sep 2014
From: london
Member No.: 73,201



WF Council responded in record time, strange how they respond quickly when they want to....

maybe they think this one is in the bag for them?

what do you think guys?









--------------------
You need to fight like a cornered tiger
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 20:56
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,663
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



I think the difficulty you might encounter is that it is highly likely the sign had been put up before the car was parked, though the council has not specifically dealt with this point.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
zee aze
post Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 19:21
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 440
Joined: 24 Sep 2014
From: london
Member No.: 73,201



The Nto arrived from the authority much ealier than expected...

what are the expected steps going forward?









This post has been edited by zee aze: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 19:28


--------------------
You need to fight like a cornered tiger
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 23:13
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,663
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You need to talk to your family member and determine the facts. Why didn't they see the sign that was put up on 30th May by the council? Either the council are wrong about the day they put it up, or your family member saw it and ignored it, or they only parked there once throughout the entire period and they missed the sign, so which is it?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
zee aze
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 20:50
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 440
Joined: 24 Sep 2014
From: london
Member No.: 73,201



so I had a word with and got him to respond to the above post...

He said he:
Never really noticed the sign, I only drive the car in the evenings to go gym and back. Don’t park at the same spot, sometimes on the other side of the road or a different road. Usually, when there is parking restrictions such as tree maintenance they usually post up no parking on each lamp post but this was just placed in one location.


--------------------
You need to fight like a cornered tiger
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 22:13
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,663
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You only have till Tuesday to challenge or all rights to appeal further might be lost. Basically the family member didn't didn't check for signs, this is understandable if they park there all the time but, unfortunately, the law expects a diligent motorist to check the signs each and every time they post. To be honest your best bet is to make a plea for discretion and hope that they mess up the response, or at least re-offer the discount.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
zee aze
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:29
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 440
Joined: 24 Sep 2014
From: london
Member No.: 73,201



Right I see...

This is what has been drafted... Is the day until tommorow midnight?
--------

Dear Council,
This is in reply to the Notice to Owner (Nto) sent on the 20th May 2019.
I am appealing the decision based on the following:
Lack of signs: I believe there was a lack of signs which would indicate there was a bike shed being installed on a certain date. According to the photos there was only one sign displayed outside House No.7 on a Tree. There were No other signs displayed anywhere else on the road that indicated that a bike shed would be installed on the 10th April. I parked on the evening of the 9th April and I did not see any other signs leading to my home that a bike shed would be installed.
I have been driving and parking on Second Avenue for the past 12 years and due to the busy nature of the surrounding roads I have always parked in different locations on the road and also nearby roads. For example I was driving on Theydon Street in E17 (figure 1) on Friday 14th June and immediately you could see on this road there was parking restrictions about to take place to the vast amount of signs placed throughout the road. I do believe by just only having 1 sign underneath a tree is not enough to inform the residents of works to be carried out especially if you are continuously parking in multiple locations in the area due to lack of parking spaces.
Permanent Parking Signs: There are permanent parking permit restriction signs outside No.3, No.13 and No.16 on my road. When parking I passed the Normal parking permit signs outside No.13 and No.16 but the photos that the traffic officer took shows no suspension signs erected on those signs. Instead I can see that the Council have relied on non-standard (does not include wings) signs placed on a Tree.
Given that my responsibility is to check traffic signs, this places a similar duty on the council to erect suspension signs on the nearest relevant traffic sign. Having not seen any suspension notice on any traffic signs, I felt free to park and not under any duty to check elsewhere, not that I would expect to find traffic restriction-related signs on a Tree.
Also Figure 1 in on Theydon Street, E17 shows different signs and clearly informs even non drivers of works about to take place in the area. The parking suspension signs on Theydon Street are placed around the Tree and Lamposts which is visible to people walking in opposite directions. The parking suspension sign on Second Avenue was just 1 sign facing only onto the road and this would not be visible to anyone walking by like the signs on Theydon Street.
No Letters Sent to indicate Bike shed Installation: At no point previous or after the tree signage I was sent any letters/emails/newsletter to indicate that there was a bike to be installed on my road. Please clarify the procedure of notification to residents.
Suspension Sign: The sign displayed only displays No Loading. If there was a suspension of parking, then there should be Normal Restriction signs of Parking Suspension.
Parking Bays: There are No parking bays on Second Avenue which indicate which number house you are parked outside. There was a significant part of my car parked outside No.9 which was outside the parking restriction. I believe without the parking bays it is difficult to determine which cars are parked outside which house.
Regards


--------------------
You need to fight like a cornered tiger
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 19:54
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,663
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You have till midnight Tuesday. Nothing in your letter asks the council to exercise discretion to cancel. This sort of representation needs to be more along the lines of : my bad, didn't see the signs, awfully sorry, promise I'll be a lot more careful from now on...

You're basically asking for forgiveness, so you can't really word it as a challenge as you're trying to get them on side.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 19th August 2019 - 00:38
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.