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NTO but no PCN - Motorbike in space - Lewisham
MsCee
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 13:53
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Hi all,

Hoping for help with a very frustrating parking fine I've received.

I was sent an NTO in respect to a PCN that was apparently issued to me for parking on a footway.

This particular evening I returned home and there were no spaces to park (within permit bays) along my entire road and I was especially disgruntled as a motorbike was parked selfishly, ensuring a lot of space was taken up where in fact a car could have fitted alongside it. I drove up and down for about 30 minutes desperately hoping someone would get in their parked car and drive away creating a space but nobody did.
In the end I had no choice but to park in what I believed to be the safest place possible. I then got out of my car and decided to take pictures of how the motorbike was parked because I recognised I shouldn't have been parking where I did but simply had no choice and wanted to have evidence to show the situation. (pictures attached)

I thought it was all fine because when I later moved my car there was no PCN on my windscreen.

However, a month later I have received an NTO through the post. I have looked online and can see that the traffic warden placed a large PCN on my windscreen and took pics of my car - but this PCN was certainly not there when I went out to my car later that evening and re-parked.

What would be the best way for me to appeal this? I am a permit holder for this street and it is not my fault that my neighbours had parked so selfishly, furthermore, the PCN was quite honestly NOT on my windscreen when I went to the car so it is also not my fault that the fine went unpaid as I was not even aware one was ever issued.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

This post has been edited by MsCee: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 14:24
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post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 13:53
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DastardlyDick
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 14:33
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In London, footway parking has been forbidden since 1974, and requires no signage. The photo's prove the contravention, the facts that you have a permit and someone parked badly are not a defence, neither is the fact that you didn't get the PCN - the Council can prove that they served it as per regulations.
IMO, you are best advised to pay up I'm afraid.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 14:47
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Well do make a polite formal appeal saying the PCN had been removed by someone unknown and you did not get it, so would they accept the discount.

That is if bang to rights on contravention as you seem to be.

you can park on a single yellow line outside of the controlled hours/timeplate but never on the footway unless it is specifically allowed.
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MsCee
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 17:41
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Thanks for your replies.

Just to check, do you think it would make a difference within my formal appeal that the parking bays themselves on that part of the road are partially on the footpath? Hence my thinking that the safest spot for the car would be to put it partially on the footpath so it was in-line with the other cars?

Also, should I bother to include the photos of the bike in my appeal or not?

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stamfordman
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 18:00
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QUOTE (MsCee @ Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 18:41) *
Just to check, do you think it would make a difference within my formal appeal that the parking bays themselves on that part of the road are partially on the footpath? Hence my thinking that the safest spot for the car would be to put it partially on the footpath so it was in-line with the other cars?

Also, should I bother to include the photos of the bike in my appeal or not?



Let's see a Google Street View link of location. If theh footway ban has been disallowed on part of the road there may be an appeal angle but we need to look around.

A pic of the bike is not going to help you at all.

Post all the NTO too.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
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DastardlyDick
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 18:32
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Yes, definitely post up a GSV of the location - this new information could be your get out of jail card.
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MsCee
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 20:01
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So my car was next to the beige and orange wall+building, behind where the grey car is on the google map link, on a single yellow line but partially on the path (as I was following the placement of the parking bays)

https://www.google.com/maps/place/222+Sangl...33;4d-0.0129851

Images here:
https://ibb.co/B3Wt8Gj
https://ibb.co/9W38s7J
https://ibb.co/fChLDrg
https://ibb.co/Gsb2WZf
https://ibb.co/1RbtY1c

Thanks again for your help!
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stamfordman
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 20:39
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There are no pavement parking signs and no park in bay signs.

Our member, CP, is good at these ones- there may well be a resolution allowing pavement parking there which could get you off this. I'm sure he'll be along later.
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MsCee
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 20:00
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Much appreciated @stamfordman

Hoping you're my saviour @cp8759 ! smile.gif

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cp8759
post Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 20:21
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I suspect this is one of the many cases where there is no resolution. I would take the simple approach of putting the burden of producing the resolution on them (I've seen enough of these to be able to say I'm almost sure it doesn't exist).
------------
Dear Sir or Madam,

I dispute the alleged contravention on the basis that while my vehicle was parked on the footpath, footway parking is permitted at this location. There are parking bays along Sangley Road which provide that vehicles may be parked with two wheels on the pavement, there must therefore be a resolution passed under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 which permits footway parking on Sangley Road.

Where such a resolution only allows footway parking within marked bays, rather than on the entire length of the street, there is a requirement to use diagram 667.1 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 with the words "In marked bays" in the lower panel. Absent such signage, there is no indication that the footway parking exemption doesn't apply on the entire street.

I draw your attention to section 15(5) which provides that:

A highway authority shall, before the date specified in a resolution passed or notice issued in accordance with the last foregoing subsection, take such steps as are necessary to secure the placing on or near the road or footpath, or the part thereof, to which the resolution or notice relates of such traffic signs in such position as they consider requisite.

If the resolution which permits footway parking on Sangley Road only applies to marked bays, you are invited to produce a copy of the resolution.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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MsCee
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 22:34
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Thank you so much cp8759!

Just to clarify, the NTO sent to me contains a 'how to challenge' section with an attached form and various options for making a representation. See links below. (sorry not the best pics, I can take them again if necessary)

https://ibb.co/Gsb2WZf
https://ibb.co/B3Wt8Gj

Should my best course of action be to return the form they have provided and include your letter as accompaniment? And if so, which option on the form should I tick? (My assumption would be 'The Traffic Order which is alleged to have been contravened was invalid' -or- 'Any other ground you wish to raise' ?)

Or should I just send your letter by itself? Does it even matter? (As you can tell, I haven't ever had to do this before!)

It also invites me to include supporting evidence. Is there anything you advise me sending? I can take and print date-stamped photos of the road and it's lack of signage if it is advised.

Thanks again for all your help!
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hcandersen
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 10:23
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@cp, not quite correct in the circumstances but given that the OP has taken 2 weeks even to acknowledge your post then I'm not going to propose amendments, except that for completeness the OP should tell the authority that they didn't find a PCN on the vehicle, if true.


OP, pl get on with it. What cp has given is sufficient. They'll say no, but that's par for the course.

NTO dated Thurs 4 Apr, deemed served Mon 8th.

The 28-day period ends 5 May.




(There are marked parking places therefore the 667.1 sign, which applies to areas, not parking places, is not required but may be used. Absent this sign, then what is required is item 3 in the Part 4 sign table, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made

But it's not present. So we're back to what a motorist may presume. Their eyes tell them that parking on the footway within the parking place is required, you cannot park outside the markings. Their eyes also tell them that the parking place sign does not convey this requirement because it does not include a picture of a car on the footway, therefore it is reasonable, IMO absolutely logical, that a motorist may presume that what they can see is correct and that they are sitting in an area where parking on the footway is permitted.)
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MsCee
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 13:47
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Hi hcanderson,

Thanks for your reply.

This issue had been somewhat at the back of my mind due to a family bereavement but I have been well aware that I have until the 5th May to send my representation. I will be sending off my letter 1st class tomorrow and will be sure to mention that there was no PCN on the car, as this is indeed fact.

I do very much appreciate the help given here and by no means would want to waste anybodies time. My late response was just a case of having to prioritise but I will now be able to respond much quicker smile.gif



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hcandersen
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 15:26
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No problem now that I know you're aware of the importance of time.
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Earl Purple
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 16:50
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You are clearly illegally parked, so the only real thing is trying to reset it back to the discount on the basis you never received the original PCN. If you can do that I would just pay the discount.

There is no mitigation in the fact that other vehicles may have parked in such a way to leave you a space. It's sad but won't win you any appeals. (If you had the strength you might have moved the motorcycle along the bay. I do that all the time, mostly when I'm also parking a motorcycle but once did it when parking my car too).

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hcandersen
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 17:07
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Not correct for the reasons set out earlier.
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Earl Purple
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 09:03
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Yes I had another look at the location and OP has in effect "extended the bay". I presume the PCN was given after the restricted time so the yellow line itself was not in force.

I actually wish that if they intend for cars to park in a place that is currently the pavement they simply remove the paving stones and make it part of the road and then it will all be obvious to all where you may and may not park.

In the meantime, pavement parking is banned "unless...". But unless what? There is a specific traffic order to exempt it, and then signs are there to show the traffic order to the public as they are not expected to have to google them. The "signs" here are the white markings on the bays. There are no markings where the yellow line is, and if there were, it would be a mixed message, presumably that parking is permitted when the yellow line is not in force, but still confusing.

I don't know how they came up with the decision to put a single yellow line there and bays in other parts, but is it clear that they made an order that, when the yellow line is not in force, you should park with the whole vehicle on the carriageway? Because a single yellow means parking is permitted there some of the time.

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hcandersen
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 09:24
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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made

Item 2 in the Part 4 sign table is the standard parking place sign. It neither requires nor permits parking on the footway when used in London.

Item 3 is the mandated traffic sign to be used to indicate that parking may or is required to take place partly on the footway.

Item 3 is NOT required in only one situation: where the parking place sits within a wider area in which parking on the footway is permitted.

Therefore as item 3 is not present it follows that either:

(a) The council have wrongly signed the parking place, or
(b) There is a wider area in which footway parking is permitted.

The OP assumed reasonably that the council have signed the parking place correctly. Therefore (b) applies.
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MsCee
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 12:06
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Ok guys, the letter is now sent. I thought it best to do it tracked so they can't claim they didn't receive it.


(Earl Purple, I sure wish I was strong enough to move the bike. I'm rather petite so it wouldn't be possible!)


Thanks so far everyone. Let's see what they come back with.



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MsCee
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 20:26
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Hi everyone,

I've now received a response to my appeal. It was rejected as expected sad.gif

Please see links below to read their letter - sorry about the shoddy photography:

https://ibb.co/b73J9Th
https://ibb.co/d6NTh0t

I found it funny that they have stated parking on the pavement is not allowed as it may block pedestrians and prams. The parking bay that sits partially on the pavement a metre down would also block pedestrians and prams if that is the case as the path was no wider where I was parked.

They haven't mentioned anywhere about the signage or lack thereof, nor did they offer me the original fine amount even though they acknowledged the PCN may have been removed from my car (or blown off in strong winds haha).

What would be the best next course of action?
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