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Wandsworth pcn 16
torenaga
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 14:02
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Hi there everyone.

My mother got a ticket the other day when she parked in a disabled bay. This was by accident as she has a residents permit to park on this street and did not realise this was a disabled bay, as the marking and lines are so badly damaged. If she had known she would of parked anywhere on the street as her permit covers this street.
The disabled sign on the floor is badly worn and damaged that it can't even be read.
There is a pole with the sign saying 'disabled badge only' but she did not see it as she has parked plenty of times on this road and knew her permit would cover this road.

What do you guys think would be her best way of approach with this fine, should she appeal to Wandsworth just saying it was a genuine mistake or should she appeal on the basis of the badly damaged road marking?

Thank you

fine 2 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 1 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

20190320_185132 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

20190320_185134 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine front_ edited20190321_0001 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine back_20190321_0001 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

Just realized i have put this in the wrong forum. BangHead.gif
Moderator can this please be moved to the council forum please.
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post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 14:02
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ostell
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 14:06
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Did you click the report button and ask for the move?
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torenaga
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 14:22
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Just requested this now.

Thank you
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 08:05
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Here:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Gilbey+...33;4d-0.1710214

This is the Notice for that disabled space:-

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-59437-1132683

Note its terms------

The general effect of the second Order will be to designate parking places for the leaving of disabled persons’ vehicles displaying a disabled person’s badge (commonly referred to as the “blue badge”) for any period without charge adjacent to the following location: -
a) No. 37 Gilbey Road

So I would argue that the wrong contravention has been given because a Code 16 "Permit" is not appropriate it should be a Code 40 relating to the non display of a Blue Badge..

We need to determine if this Council issues their own permits for dedicated disabled bays to strengthen the above ground.

Mick
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torenaga
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 09:06
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Thank you for your reply mick.
Where can I find this out about the council so I will get onto it?

Thanks again
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 11:42
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"In disabled parking bays reserved for a Blue Badge holder with a specific numbered permit"---as per :-

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200460/b...6/blue_badges/5

I doubt the BB holder displays it--just the permit.

So if the parking places order reflects the Notice and indicates just the BB then IMO the contravention given is incorrect.

Mick
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cp8759
post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 16:29
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IMO it's just a permit bay, the fact that the council will only issue a permit to a BB holder (and a specific BB holder) doesn't change that. Obviously orenaga's mother made an understandable mistake of assuming that she could park in the bay without looking at the adjacent sign, in the circumstances I would suggest a plea for discretion would be the best course of action. I would not risk the discount.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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torenaga
post Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 14:33
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I did think that CP8759.

I think i will just appeal on that basis but will also take a look at the car that parks there and see if they have a numbered blue badge.

Thank you for all the reply guys.

occasion14.gif
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torenaga
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 18:01
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Hi Everyone.

So 76 days after my appeal was sent, Wandsworth finally got in contact with me to reject my appeal.
Is there anything else we can do at this stage?
I have posted the rejection email they sent to me.

Reply 1 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

Reply 2 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

Thanks in advance
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Gert
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 07:13
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I think Mick is right.

If the bay is intended for a specific designated disabled permit holder then a) the sign and road markings should show that, and b) the correct code to use here is 16.

If the bay is only for valid blue holders then the correct code is 40.

Not seen the photos of the case but the other comments point to it being a bay open to any BB user.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 09:10
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OP, can we please have:
The challenge;
The council's photos only.

This is because the above is what the authority took into account as evidence and upon which they based their consideration and reasoning. I want to see whether their decision and reasoning as stated in their letter stand up to scrutiny in respect of the evidence.




This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 09:11
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 11:11
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From what I see the sign is not in accord with the TMO, It is the TMO that governs and if you go from that then the contravention committed is failing to display a BB (40)


The markings are poor, but the signage is clear and going from the signage (16) is correct


What the council say re further representations is wrong, and challenges made pre notice to owner must be considered. The do not have to respond but the cannot file away and maybe consider


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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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torenaga
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 12:16
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Thank you for the replies guys.
Here is the representation I sent and the original council pictures.

appeal by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 8 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 1 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 2 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 3 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 4 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 5 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 6 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

fine 5 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

Thanks again in advance.
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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 20:10
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Is the TMO online?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Gert
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 20:56
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This PCN is unenforceable as the TMO provides for disabled permit (blue badge) parking bays but the actual signed space parked in is a dedicated disabled permit only.

The sign is not supported by the TMO. Therefore the PCN must be cancelled as signs and lines error.
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torenaga
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 07:07
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I'm not sure if the TMO is online.
I noted on their acknowledgement email for my challenge that it says they have 56 days to respond to my challenge, is this correct or is it just for a NTO? Even though it says formal challenge as well?

This post has been edited by torenaga: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 07:08
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hcandersen
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 08:04
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You would win at adjudication, but let's stop it before it gets that far.

Pl get your mother to take a couple of photos of the parking place outside 32/34 ( just opposite) and also a close up and wide angle of that sign and the road markings.

Sorry to put her to this trouble but my approach would be to write back to the council and give THEM 28 days to get out of their office and visit the site where GSV shows the signs and lines to be s**te (it even rhymes).

So, the so-called 'disabled' bay is:
The wrong width;
Carries an unlawful road marking;
Mismatches the sign and road marking;
Is not clearly distinguishable from a parking bay within a sub-divided parking place..

Just for starters.

But I'd love to add that it's par for the course as one doesn't have to look far (no further than 180 deg) to find a similar example of unprofessional traffic management.

I think Wandsworth would rather lose Tooting, a bit down market for them. But they're lumbered, but why spend money on such niceties as legal signs and lines!
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torenaga
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:24
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Thank you for the replies.

It's ok, I will take the photos on her behalf so it won't be a problem.
As soon as I have taken them I will post up again.

Again thank you so much.
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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:49
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QUOTE (Gert @ Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 21:56) *
This PCN is unenforceable as the TMO provides for disabled permit (blue badge) parking bays but the actual signed space parked in is a dedicated disabled permit only.

The sign is not supported by the TMO. Therefore the PCN must be cancelled as signs and lines error.

Have you got a copy of the TMO you can share with us?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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torenaga
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 19:04
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Here are the pictures I went and took just now and the state of the markings are just a joke.

These ones are of the bay itself.
20190617_183736 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

20190617_183729 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

20190617_183434 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

20190617_183404 by breeze breeze, on Flickr


These ones are of a BB bay opposite.

20190617_183603 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

20190617_183559 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

and these are pictures of a bay about 5 doors down outside 45.

20190617_184603 by breeze breeze, on Flickr

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